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THE GOVERNMENT GAZETTE EXTRAORDINARY. 1a Friday, March 18th, 1870. The Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL—I rise to more the adoption of clause 14. These terms, or rather the terms which come back from Canada, will o f necessity come before the new electoral bod y, whose existence His Excellency has shadowed forth, and the particulars as to the division into districts must be left for the decision of that House. I t is impossible at present to specify the time. Hon. Mr . DeCOSMOS—Cannot an approximate time be named; besides there are other things upon which the country will want information. Such for instance, as whether the voting for members will be by ballot, and what is to be the qualification o f voters. I think it ought to be fixed. The Dominion law is more illiberal than that to which the people o f this country have been accustomed. I believe in the ballot, but it will be better to leave it to the constituencies. Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER—This clause has been left general, that it may be settled by the newly constituted Council. Hon. Dr HELMCKEN—I f there is a qualification for the House o f Commons it must be general for the whole Dominion. At present I believe the qualification is that existing in the Provinces before Union, ultimately there must be qualification for the whole Dominion. Hon. Dr . CARRALL- There is no general law for qualification. Hon. Mr. HUMPHREYS—The clause is indefinite and dangerous. The Dominion qualification will virtually disfranchise half the British settlers in British Columbia. We are legislating in the interests o f the people, this ought to be determined at once. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS—I believe in British subjects, having a fixed residence, and of a certain age, voting in British Columbia as it should be a residential manhood suffrage. Hon. Dr H e lm c k e n—We cannot deal with the subject now. It is impossible to divide the colony into districts until we know how many senators we are to have. Hon. Mr . HOLBROOK—Mr. Chairman, I move a recommendation to strike out the words “ i f any.” Hon. Mr WOOD—I, think the words ought to stand. The Organic Act says that senators shall be elected lor districts, but it may be desirable that senators should be appointed for the whole colony, they are nominated, and nominated because they are the best; men that the Governor can obtain. [No, no, no—Hon DeCosmos.] I believe the Executive are in the best position to know whether the principle of appointing senators is best or whether they should go for the whole colony. Hon. Mr HUMPHREYS— As this stands it. throws the whole power into the hands of the Canadians. The Lieut Governor will be a Canadian and will name Canadians, We ought to know by whom these appointments are to be made. Hon. Mr , ROBSON—It i s a great pity that these se ctional differences should be allowed to prevail, we ought to consider ourselves British Co lumbians. The Governor-General, with the consent of his Council, appoints the Lieut. -Governor; and the L ieu t -Governor, with the advioe o f his Cabinet, recommends the Senators, [No,no, Hon Dr Helmcken] Y es, it is s o ; he recommends to the Governor- General who appoints. I t is a great pity to raise these disputes about Englishmen and Canadians. Hon Mr HUMPHREYS—it is all very well to talk that w ay. I maintain that the Englishmen sitting at this table have said less as to nationality, than the Canadians. We want to be governed by British Columbians. Hon Dr HELMCKEN—We had better drop these nationalities. Hon Mr WOOD ~The Hon member for New Westminster should not be angry because we want to provide a g ainst the possibility o f ill feeling by timely precaution ‘Safe bind, safe find.’ When the Governor-General appoints Senators, i f I understand it right, he appoints the political friends o f his Cabinet. i f we are to have responsible government there will alw ays be some check, if not we may be in the position of having members selected by the Lieut-Governor without the assistance o f any responsible Cabinet. [Hear, hear, Hon DeCosmos . ] A Canadian Lieut-Governor will act with the same sort o f feeling that the English Government will. Senators will be selected by favoritism, and supporters of Confederation will doubtless be selected in this colony unless we have responsible government and representative institutions in full vigor. Canadian interests will doubtless be very prominent in this colony, and power acts injuriously on the human mind—it is one of the corrupters of the mind. Hon ATTORNE Y GENERAL—I should be sorry to s e e the words ‘ if any’ struck out; their retention leaves the matter open. Hon members seem to have forgotten that Senators must be resid ents of British Columbia. Probably they may be elected on the ground of their having an appreciation of the whole country instead of a section only. It may be that Senators will be appointed for the whole colony. Hon Mr HOLBROOK.—After hearing the explanations o f the Hon Attorney-General, I feel more desirous to press my recommendation, to show that we from the Mainland desire to have our fair share of representation, I think the w ords most objectionable. Hon Mr DeCOSMOS.—I find by the resolutions passed at the conference o f delegates in London, that Senators were to be taken from the Legislative Council. We are told by the Government that we are to go into Confederation without responsible government, then we ought to have a guarantee that the first Senators shall be representative men, and that they shall not be chosen by the Governor, and put into office for life without reference to the people. Hon Mr HUMPHREYS.—I shall move a recommendation that the first Senators shall be nominated by the Legislature. Hon Dr HELMCKEN.—The position will be worth $600. The difficulty will be to get anyone to go there. People are chary o f going into the Legislative Council now, and they will not be very anxious to go to Canada. As to choosing Senators from one place it is out of the question. And it is equally out of the question to appoint them by the Legislative Council. Hon Mr HUMPHREYS.—We are here as the agents of the people, delegates in point of fact, and we are bound to legislate in accordance with the well understood wishes of the people. In reference to having these Senators appointed, we are bound to see what they are and whether the people are likely to approve o f our acts. Hon ATTORNEY GENERAL.— Hon members must remember that these resolutions will be submitted to the people, a much abused term, as the Hon member for Victoria District has truly said, and our common object must be to make the terms acceptable to the people. They will have to pass upon them in the last resort, and to say we will or we will not have them. Hon Mr PEMBERTON.—The objection seems to me to be dividing British Columbia into districts. It is a qualification for Senators that they must reside in their districts, therefore I think it will not be desirable to divide the colony into districts. I think the clause should stand as it is. Hon Mr ROBSON— One matter deserves attention in connection with this item. I believe that the indemnity to Senators is six hundred dollars in a lump sum, without traveling expenses. I think it is now commuted, and this would place British Columbia Senators at a disadvantage with others. I t is no hardship to other Provinces, but would be most unfair upon British Columbia, traveling expenses both ways should be allowed. Hon ATTORNEY GENERAL—My conviction is that mileage is now allowed. I f I am right ten cents a mile both ways is allowed. Hon Mr BARNARD—I t is the prerogative o f the Governor; we had better vote for the repeal o f the Organic Act. Hon Mr DeCOSMOS—Under the proposed constitution Senators would be chosen by an irresponsible Governor, on the advice o f an irresponsible Minister; those who own this country do not want such a state of things to be. Hon Mr WOOD—I t is better to bear in mind that the Organic Act applies to three or at the most four Provinces : Canada East, Canada West and the Maritime Provinces, here we want exception a l terms. Hon Mr ROBSON—Hon members seem to assume that we are going to enter Confederation without responsible government. This I repudiate. I say we shall enter with privileges equal to other Provinces. I decline to assume anything e lse. With regard to the appointment of Senators by the Legislative Council, I would ask by what council? By this or b y the new House? It would not satisfy the people that a Council nominated b y the Governor should appoint, and it is yet to be seen that the new House, as shadowed forth by the Governor, would be less objectionable than this one. We are entirely in the dark. Hon Mr HUMPHREYS — As I understand it these Senators are to be appointed a fter Confederation, and consequently the recommendation refers to the new Council. His Excellency says that he will give a majority to the popular members, and l have no doubt he means what he says. I believe him to be a most estimable gentleman, but I have a feeling that he has been misled; it is not likely that in a few weeks’ travel he could understand the wants and feelings o f the people ; you must eat, drink and sleep amongst them to understand a people. I f I were a great Government contractor I would support the Government, I ask some reason of rank; it would be very easy to give us a majority o f two or three popular members, but unless we have a large majority of Representative members the Government might still get their own way. Hon Mr ROBSON — I desire, Mr. Chairman, to answer two points. I believe we shall fight for and have responsible Government. In referring to the Governor’ s speech, the Hon. member for Lillooet, says the new Council will be ju s t similar to this, that it will still be unrepresentative. I cannot see why there should be this doubt about the Constitution of the new Council I f there were to be only a majority of two or three the Council would still be unrepresentative, and the people wi ll not be contented with such a form o f Government. The argument o f the honorable member for Lillooet refutes itself in the most conclusive w ay. The people do not want an unrepresentative House, not having their confidence to elect their Senators. Hon Mr KING— What have we to do with the Organic Act? Why should we put ourselves under the iron points o f the Organic Act, and be dragged under a harrow all the days o f our lives? I f the act is wrong it must be repealed. Now is the time to express our opinion. T he CHAIRMAN put the recommendation o f Mr. Humphreys, which on division was lost, and o f Mr. Robson, which on division was lost. Clause fourteen passed as read. Hon ATTORNEY GENERAL—Sir : I rise to move the adoption o f clause fifteen, which is as follows: 15. The constitution o f the Executive authority and o f the Legislature o f British Columbia shall subject to the ‘ ‘ British North America Act, 1867,” continue as existing at the time o f union, until altered under the authority o f the said act. And before touching upon the merits o f the resolution itself I wish to explain that the time which must necessarily elapse before Confederation will allow ample opportunity to procure a change in the Constitution, and I desire to impress upon Hon members that this question o f alteration in the form of Government, is not necessarily connected with the resolution now before the House. I make these observations in consequence of observing a notice of the Hon member for Lillooet on the subject o f responsible government on the orders o f the day. On behalf o f the Government I desire to say that there is no desire whatever to shirk the full d iscussion o f the question o f responsible government. I throw the door open and invite the fullest discussion, but as the question o f the change of the constitution of this colony is one that lies between this colony and the Imperial Government, it does not form an item in these resolutions, therefore I would ask Hon members to postpone the consideration o f responsible government and pass these resolutions. On a question o f such importance a special d a y , irrespective o f these resolutions, should be set apart for discussion—there is no desire whatever on the part o f the Government to shirk the question. The matter o f the constitution is under negotiation between this colony and the Imperial Government at this moment. Supposing these resolutions are passed, other negotiations must take place. First, Canada has to accept them, then there is reference back to British Columbia to submit to the popular vote, so that there will be full time allowed for the new institutions to be inaugurated i f the people say that they do not want the terms, but that they want responsible government-, they will undoubtedly get it. I cannot conceive our going into Confederation with a Crown Council—we must expect to go in with fuller representative institutions. I f we do not have Confederation under these terms, we shall nevertheless have representative institutions and a majority under the Imperial Act will have the power to change and get responsible government, that is party government. My point is, that it is not necessary to drag in responsible government now; it is not necessary to mix it up with these resolutions. Our vote on this resolution need not be decided on responsible government, or party government. We shall still be open to send any other resolution on the subject o f party government to the Governor. I therefore throw out the invitation to discuss it more fully on a future day. I feel sure that i f this course is adopted the discussion will be more free. Hon Mr RING—I think, Sir, that his Excellency’s message, if I may so call these resolutions, invites us to discuss responsible government. Sir, we have been in former days favored with representative institutions, and have been defrauded oi them. I desire to know what we have gained b y the irresponsible government that has for some years past oppressed us. What I ask has been done about the various questions that have come up—the 2A THE GOVERNMENT GAZETTE EXTRAORDINARY. Sisters rocks, the Court o f Appeal—the answer has been, no funds. Where do the funds come from? From the people. I f the Governor heard the views of the people he might, perhaps, change his views. I ask Hon members here, who have lived under responsible government in Great Britain, (Hear, hear from Mr DeCosmos) not to be recreant to their country. Hon members on the other side say they are against responsible government and refer to a former House o f Assembly o f Vancouver Island. This is no argument. I trust that Hon members loving British institutions will be true to their country, because there are defects in some assemblys do not let us run into the abject error o f saying we are not fit for self government. We have borne this too long; do not let us hand over to Canada our consent to submit to this degradation; let us not say we are unfit; that we surrender the question o f self government. Who, I ask, has examined the people? Who has tried them and discovered whether or not they are competent to exercise the privileges o f responsible government? There are many points in this clause which demand discussion, bu t I am not going to exhaust myself. I say, however, that the question o f r e sponsible government must be considered. I throw the gauntlet down Hon Mr HUMPHREYS—Mr Chairman, as mover of the resolution on responsible government, I do not think it necessary to take u p the time o f the House. I am perfectly satisfied in my own mind that the official members are convinced that the people are in favor o f responsible government. As a student of history, young as I am, I begin to realize this truth; that all liberty and improvement has been infused into communities by the shock o f revolution, or violent agitation. There is no hope o f political improvement in time of tranquility and without agitation. The official members of this council are remarkable for their profound indifference t o right and wrong. I t is in their interest to postpone the settlement o f this question o f responsible government. I hold that there is a great necessity lor this resolution; the question ought to be settled now and forever. Why should we be compelled, year after year, to fight these battles for reform over and ever again; let this question be settled so that we may have leisure for other things. How gentlemen say the people are not in favor o f responsible government; time will show. I say that they will almost as a unit insist upon it, a nd I lay down this proposition—no responsible government, no Confederation; no Confederation, no pensions. Instead of tightening the governmental reins they should be slackened. If responsible government is not granted these officials will still lose their power; for then in all probability a mightier nation than Canada will take charge o f us. I am in favor o f Confederation if it gives us permanent advantages not otherwise. We must have a free constitution. My conscience tells me that my votes on these resolutions a re not prompted by selfish motive s ; i f the people get responsible government I am satisfied. His Excellency admits that he would not like to extend the liberal form o f government to this colony. My opinion is that there is no community unfit to govern themselves; government is not a complicated machine; there is very little difference between carrying on a government and carrying on a business. One-half o f the depression in this colony is in my opinion attributable to the despotic form of government. Just fancy the head of a mercantile house allowing his c lerk s to carry on the whole business of the firm a s th ey pleased. (Hear, hear from Mr DeCosmos). Without responsible government you will lose Confederation; it is not necessary to say anymore; let us have something like the government o f Ontario. T h o s e whom I have the honor to represent sent me here to advocate responsible government. I will read fr on a petition now in my hands. Hon Attor ney- General—This is out o f order; I rise to call the Hon member to order; this is not the t ime to present a petition. Hon Mr DeCosmos—The Hon member has a right to read from it. Chairman—The Hon member cannot read from a petition which has n o t been presented to and received by this House. Hon Mr. Robson— Mr. Chairman, I request that you will be careful in ruling on this matter. Hon members have the right to read from documents to show the views o f their constituents. I t is alluded to as the b est m eans o f acquainting t he House with the views of the constituency which the Hon member represents. Hon Attorney-General—On the other hand I would say that the r ight o f petitioners must be respected, and i f Hon members are allowed to read petitions, then petitions can be g ot in by a side wind Hon Mr Robson—In my opinion the Hon member has a right to real from a document o f this kind. Hon Dr Hel mcken—Saving looked at this document I see i t is not a petition to this House and may therefore be quoted. The Chairman having looked at the document decided that it might be quoted. Hon Mr Humphreys then read a port;on of the prayer o f the petition, which purported to be to Her Majesty the Queen: Hon Mr . Robson—Tne honorable and learned Attorney General has appealed to those honorable members who are in favor of responsible Government to postpone the question for the present. I should be glad to accede to the request i f the honorable and learned gentleman will meet the objections that present themselves to my mind as to that course In my opinion to vote for this section now will preclude the possibility o f our bringing on the subject o f responsible Government in the House this session. We shall be met with the assertion that it has been already discussed and decided for this session. I am quite sure the honorable and learned Attorney General does not wish to catch us in a trap. Hon Attorney General—Certainly n ot. As h on o ra b le m em bers have insisted upon opening the question, I n ow propose to g o on w ith the discussion. Hon Mr Robson—I am most anxious to meet the views o f the Government in this matter, if possible, but as we are asked to vote aye or no upon this clause, I say that in voting for it we shall be casting our votes in direct opposition to Responsible Government. Hon A t t o r ney G en e r a l—The discussion must go on now ; you have begun it is too late to withdraw ; the lists are closed, and the gang of battle down. Mr Robson—Mr. Chairman, I will address myself to the question before the House, which I feel to be the most important clause in these terms ; a question, in fact, which underlies the peace, prosperity and happiness o f British Columbia; a question which, if carelessly or improperly treated now, may eventuate in the most serious consequences to the Colony : for I believe the people are as ready now as in earlier days to fight for freedom, and to shed their blood in defense o f their political rights. I t becomes us, then, to be candid with ourselves and with each other, very serious, firm and dispassionate in discussing this clause, as it might result in most disastrous consequences. As I read the clause it places it beyond the power o f the Colonists to obtain the form o f Government which they, as I believe, really want, and i f we pass it we shall obtain no more than that slightly more liberal form, which is foreshadowed in his Excellency’s speech, under the cover o f representative Government. Profoundly impressed as I am, with the gravity o f the subject we are now called upon to consider, any remarks I may be enabled to offer will proceed rather from a sense o f duty to my constituents and to m y country than from any hope o f changing the views or influencing the vote o f any honorable member. What is responsible Government? I have been led to believe that considerable confusion o f Ideas exists upon this p o int; and I was the more impressed with this upon listening to the remarks of the honorable member for Caraboo, a few days ago. That honorable gentleman compared the introduction of responsible Government into this colony to applying the machinery o f the Great Eastern to a dairy churn. Now, sir, responsible Government is not a quantity ; it is a principle; and as such it is applicable to the Great Eastern or to a dairy churn, capable of being applied to a tiny lady’s watch. I t is a principle admirably adapted to the largest communities in the Old World. It is a principle admirably adapted to the smallest communities in the New World. It is a principle that may be worked out in a cabinet o f a hundred. I t is a principle which may be successfully worked out in a cabinet o f three. Without it no Government can, in the true sense, be called a peoples' Government. All true Governments derive their power from the people. All true Governments must be responsible to the people. Responsible Government is, then, a principle which may be adapted to, and successfully worked out in this community, i f this proposition is incontrovertible, which I maintain it is, who can say that British Columbia is not large enough for responsible Government, There are men here o f ability to form a cabinet The Cabinet o f the day is, under the responsible system, the Government. Just so long as it has the confidence of a majority of the representatives o f the people in the House. In the event o f that confidence being lost, one o f two courses is open. The Ministers place their resignation in the hands o f the Governor, who commonly calls upon a prominent member of the opposition to form a Ministry: or it they believe that the House does not truly represent the people upon the question at issue, they advise a dissolution and an appeal to the country. What would responsible Government have to do here? In dealing with this question I , o f course, assume British Columbia to be a province o f the dominion; and I confess, that were o t h e r wise, were it proposed to remain a separate colony the case would be different . I do not say that even then I would not advocate the introduction of responsible Government, but that advocacy might be less hearty and less firm. Regarding British Columbia as a province o f the dominion, the chief objections are removed by the removal to Ottawa o f all those larger and mere complex questions o f legislation which might threaten to crack the brain o f our embroyo statesmen The local Government would alone have to deal with local questions, and thus it would h ave very simple duties to discharge, scarcely more difficult, in fact, than those falling within the functions o f a large manic parity in Canada. Are the people in British Columbia fit for it ? And here I would express my sincere regret that the representative o f her Majesty in this colony has felt it to be his duty to pronounce an adverse opinion. I will yield to no one, either in this House or out o f it, in entertaining a high respect for his Excellency, for his talent, experience, and honesty o f purpose. But I do say, and I say it with respect, more in sorrow than in anger, that I cannot think his knowledge of the people o f this colony was such as to justify him in so early pronouncing upon their fitness for self-government. Attorney General—The houorable member for New Westminster will, I am sure, pardon the interruption, but I feel it my duty to deny that the Governor ever said, or that any member o f the Government has said or thought that the people o f British Colombia are unfit for self government. Mr Robson—I thank the honorable and learned Attorney General, and I appreciate his motives. There is no one less disposed than myself to speak or write one word calculated to weaken the hands o f the Government, or cause the well-deserved popularity o f his Excellency to wane; but yet I cannot conceal from myself the fact that a mere play upon words will not mend matters. Whether it is the colony or its inhabitants that has been pronounced unfit for self-government, the practical results remain the same, and it is with these we alone are concerned. From my own knowledge o f the people, and it is the result o f eleven years’ contact with them, I h ave no hesitation in saying they are pre-eminently fitted for self government. There are scores o f men in the country with callused palms and patched garments well fitted by natural end owments, education and practical experience in the working o f responsible Government in other colonies, to occupy seats either in the Legislative Assembly or in the Cabinet of Br itish Columbia. He who would judge o f the intelligence and mental acquirements o f men in this colony by outward appearance and by present occupation certainly would not judge righteous judgment. The opinion of his Excellency the Governor to the contrary, notwithstanding, I boldly assert that the people o f British Columbia are fit for responsible Government. Do they want it? Doubtless there are those in this House, possibly even in the unofficial ranks, who will deny that the people of British Columbia really desire to have responsible Government under confederation. I t is sometimes difficult to account for divergence of opinion; but I venture to think that I have the weight o f both argument and evidence on my side when I assert, as I do, that the great body o f the people, certainly an overwhelming majority, do earnestly and intelligently desire that form o f government. It is difficult to believe that any man who has given due thought to the subject can possibly hesitate. Look at the position this colony would occupy under Confederation, without the full control o f its own local affairs—a condition alone attainable by means o f responsible government. While the other Provinces only surrender Federal questions to the central government, we would s urrender all. While the other Provinces with which it is proposed to confederate upon equal and equitable terms retain the fullest power to manage all provincial matters, British Columbia would surrender that power —her local as well as her national affairs would virtually be managed at Ottawa. Could a union so unequal be a happy and enduring one ? The compact we are about to form is for life. Shall we take into it the germ o f discord and disruption ? The people desire change ; but they have no desire to exchange the Imperial heel for the Canadian heel. They desire political manumission. I stand here, and, in the name of my ancestors, protest before Heaven against the surrender o f constitutional rights purchased by the best blood o f our race—a priceless legacy we have no right to barter away, even if we would. We owe it to our ancestors to preserve entire those rights which they have delivered to our care. We owe it to posterity not to suffer their dearest inheritance to be destroyed. But, i f it were possible for us to be insensible o f these sacred claims, there is yet an obligation binding upon ourselves, from which nothing can acquit u s ; a personal interest which we THE GOVERNMENT GAZETTE EXTRAORDINARY. 3a cannot surrender. To alienate even our own rights would be a crime as much more enormous than suicide, as a life of civil security and political freedom is superior to a condition o f serfdom ; a n d if life be the bounty o f Heaven, we scornfully reject the noblest part o f the gift i f we consent to surrender that certain rule of living and those constitutional rights, without which the condition of human nature is not only miserable but contemptible. I know but too well that the people of this colony have, during these years past, been unjustly and unconstitutionally deprived o f their rights ; but the perpetration of a wrong in the past can constitute no argument for perpetuating that wrong in the future ; and it would appear a most fitting moment, when a new constitution is about to be offered,, to demand the full restoration o f political rights of which we have been for some time so unjustly deprived. A word about the constitution which the Governor proposes to confer .upon this colony. Regarding it in the dim light shed upon it by the Executive, it is not unfair to assume that there will be one more popular member taken into the Executive, and that the people will have a majority of two in the Legislature. Let us suppose that the Legislative Council has 20 members, 11 elected by the. people and 9 appointed by the Governor. Three are taken from the 11 into the mysterious chamber of the Executive, where they become—I will not say corrupted—manipulated, educated to see things somewhat differently from what they saw them before. In a House so constituted, is it unfair, is it uncharitable to conclude that, on all government measures at least, the government would command a majority? Take 3 from 11 and 8 remain. Take 8 from 20 and how many remain to the government? Is it not 12? Where, then, is the people’s majority under the proposed constitution ? And yet I am constantly told that this is not the proper time to ask for responsible government—that i f the people want it they will p ossess, under the new constitution, the ready means of obtaining it. Sir, I do not see the matter in that light, I see in the proposed constitution a condition o f things which promises a five years', possibly a ten years’ agitation for what the people are prepared for now, desire now, are entitled to now All governments are naturally conservative. All persons holding positions o f honor, power or emolument are conservative. Think you those holding off i c e by appointment will favor or promote a change which would make them responsible to the people—exchange their commission from the Crown for the more brittle tenure o f public opinion’? On the contrary, we should find those in power opposed to the people in their struggle for responsible government; and how long the struggle might last it would be idle to predict. Besides, the people o f Canada do not desire to see British Columbia occupying any such false position. They know too well the value o f free institutions, and their adaptation to new countries to think of withholding them from us. These institutions were not won without a long and bloody struggle, even in Canada; and the prosperity and contentment o f that people date from the inauguration of responsible government. The failure o f representative institutions formerly enjoyed upon this island, is frequently cited as an argument against responsible government being introduced here. I admit the partial failure of these institutions. That failure w a s n ’t , how ever , on account o f the institutions being ‘representative’ , but because they were not ‘ responsible.’ The essential principle w as w anting There was no constitutional connecting link—no bond o f sympathy between those who sat by the will o f the people and those who sat contrary to, and in defiance of, that will. The system, painted, though it was, in popular dress, was rotten at the core—proved a delusion and a sham. The people, sometimes in indifference and contempt, permitted unsuitable men to be elected, and the whole thing came t o rack and ruin. I t is to avoid a repetition o f that unseemly farce that the people demand that any new constitution which may be conferred upon this colony shall be based upon the only true principle of responsibility. This question should be finally settled. The colony desires political rest. To inaugurate a fresh political agitation with union is most undesirable and might lead to disastrous results. The possible consequences of a refusal to grant responsible government coincident with Confederation is a part o f the subject I almost hesitate to touch I would neither prophecy, predict nor threaten ; but I would ask the government to head well and carefully the lessons written in blood in other countries. Human nature is much the same on both sides o f this great continent. Has the Anglo-Saxon race become so utterly degenerate here that it is prepared to barter away for mere money subsidies those rights which were purchased with so much blood elsewhere? I utterly refuse to think so meanly of this people We have seen that even the hall-breeds at Red River have too much of the of 1 blood in their veins to permit a fancied political wrong. I am not going to predict a rebellion here. Heaven grant there may be none But I do feel it my duty to warn the government against unnecessarily provoking such a possible contingency. Why should there be such an unaccountable antipathy to investing the people of British Columbia with those political powers enjoyed under the British Constitution ? Why is the present form o f government so unpopular with the people ? I will tell you why. It is just because it is not a people’s government. They had no hand in making it. They have none in working it. They can have none in unmaking it. Only let the people have a hand in forming the Government, in selecting men of their own choice to rule over them, and we would find a popular government, a strong government, strong in the heart and confidence o f the people. The very same gentlemen who are unpopular now, because ruling without the consent o f the people would be popular then, because ruling by the act and with the consent o f the people. The people o f British Columbia are naturally a conservative people Restore to them their political rights, and no Government would need to fear an undue desire for change. The people know best how to manage their own local affairs. Depend upon it; sir, the people are seldom wrong in their opinions; in their sentiments they are never mistaken. Those now in power hare a great responsibility resting upon them. Upon the manner in which they acquit themselves in regard to this very question may hang the most momentous consequences. Will they promote everlasting wellbeing? or precipitate untold evil? Heaven grant that they may do right! I stand here to day to advise and warn , not to threaten and predict. The Government has a very g rave responsibility in this matter, and may well take j a lesson from other countries. The possible consequence o f a refusal to grant a reasonable request may be a repetition o f the Red River trouble. Let not the government make a fatal mistake, or they may f ind themselves in a state o f political agitation that may lead to the most serious consequences. I believe that, under circumstances analogous to what occurred in the Red River Territory, the Imperial Government would treat the inhabitants of this colony with even more consideration. I t would not be a question of bayonets and fleets to coerce this colony; but it would be a question o f what concessions ought to be made. I say that the Government have an opportunity now not only o f s hunning evil but o f doing a great work. Oh ! let not the Government make the fatal mistake o f saying the people shall not manage their own affairs. Do not let t hem make the fatal mistake o f compelling the people to reject these conditions at the polls. Now I have discharged a duty; I have said all I feel called upon to say at this stage. I have stated my own views and, I venture to think, those of an overwhelming majority o f the people o f British Columbia as well as o f my own constituents. I trust the Government will take care how they force a vote on this question which affects this whole community (Hear, hear). This is , in a sense, distinct from the conditions, and it is probable that the Governor must obtain what we are now asking from a different quarter. But, obtain it from where he will, it must, I say, be obtained. I beg to move the following amendment, as meeting the case more fully than the resolution offered by the Hon member for Lillooet. Whereas no union can be either acceptable or satisfactory which does not confer upon the people o f British Columbia as full control over their own local affairs as is enjoyed in the other Provinces with which it is proposed to confederate, therefore, be it Resolved. That an humble address be presented to His Excellency the Governor, earnestly recommending that a Constitution based upon the principle o f Responsible Government as existing in the Province o f Ontario, may be conferred upon this colony, coincident with its admission into the Dominion o f Canada. Hon Attorney General.—Allow me to observe on this, that the Hon member is asking the Government to grant what it has no power to give. Hon Mr Robson—The Governor has promised to seek the power to grant us a new constitution. We only ask that in that new constitution we may have responsible government. Hon Mr DeCosmos,—Mr Chairman, I do not intend to occupy the House for many minutes. I agree with the Hon member for Lillooet and I disagree with the Hon member for New Westminster. I think, sir, that we ought to have representative institutions and responsible government irrespective o f Confederation The Hon member for New Westminster’s proposition unites it with Confederation. I think this is a mistake, but it is o f no matter so long as we get it. I look upon British Columbia as a municipality under the British Crown, Under Canada it will be a municipality with less power. Anyone who knows anything o f municipal law knows that it is based upon three principles: Territory, authority and responsibility. This colony has the first two, and we are now asking for the third, and the terms sent down to the Council do not contain the elements of responsibility o f the Executive to the people. Everything is tending to this point Without responsibility, no matter bow elective the new Council is, it will be a failure. The people want responsible government and representative institutions under any circumstances. I think the people would be traitors to themselves i f they accepted any form o f g o v ernment which had not the element o f responsibility. I would rebel i f there were enough like me in the colony, and arrest every member o f the Government that I thought was robbing me o f my rights. I would go to a further extreme. However, I shall not trouble the House with a long speech on this matter, as I consider it o f little use. This question ended, I am contented to leave this Council and go to my constituents. Hon Dr Carrall.—Mr Chairman, I should like to ask what all this breeze is about? I t is perfectly clear to all that as soon as we enter the Confederacy the people o f this country can have any form of government they desire, I refuse to take up the issue without Confederation, in a state o f isolation. We are dealing with Confederation. I am, equally with the Hon member for New Westminster, aware og the priceless boon o f responsibility, which exists in England, which may fairly be called the Standard-Bearer o f nations and I aam equally aware that the same responsibility does not exist in the United States. During the late war I was in the United States’ army, Stanton, the then Secretary o f War, was a most unpopular man. They wanted to get rid o f him, but he could not be removed. When I took the ground that responsible government was not expedient, it was not because I did not approve of the system. It is, I say, the wisest and best form o f government, but it is too cumbrous for this colony. I will repeat my objections; The Council contains no men of influence, the constituencies are too remote, and the inhabi tants are all engaged in bread-seeking ; there are few men of independent means who would take part in responsible government, and consequently the direction of public affairs would fall into the hands of men who are not fitted or qualified to govern the country, o r otherwise into the hands o f Victorians; neither o f which I , for one, wish to see. How unfortunate it would be for Caribooites i f the Hon senior member for Victoria (Dr Helmcken) were elected for Cariboo, I say, then. that it must fall into bad hands, or into the hands o f Victorians. I offer that argument as a British Columbian. The Executive Council do not care one fig what sort o f government the people take. The Executive say the question is one for the people to decide. We have a measure o f responsibility now. The Hon member for New Westminster says that His Excellency will do certain things. I take his speech as it reads, and I have no doubt that a majority of the people’s representatives will sit round the board, none know how great the majority will be. (Attorney General— Hear,hear.) Responsible government has never been made a distinct issue throughout the colony. [It has, Mr DeCosmos.] The Hon member says that it has ; I say it has not. It has been named with Confederation but not by it s e l f ; and until it is made a separate question my advice to the Governor will be not to grant it. The Governor has left you to choose any government you deem best. Do you think it would be better to have as permanent heads o f departments two or three gentlemen who are familiar with the wants o f the colony, or a moveable ministry going out on a question o f repairs to Cowichan road, or something of that kind. These are amongst the things that you have to consider, and if, after due consideration, the people desire responsible government they will have it . I am here to state that his Excellency the Governor has no wish or desire to keep back responsible government, if he had any such desire is it likely that he would have reconstituted his Executive Counc il so as to make it elective? I apprehend that people do not consider what they are talking about when they ask for responsible government; they have not probably considered the failures that have been made in respect of responsible government; there have been some failures, as, for instance, in Jamaica and in Victoria. A class o f people get into power under responsible government whom no person would like to have as rulers. There are petty interests mixed up with politics in small communities which prevent the system working so well in them, as in large countries like Great Britain, where there is a healthy tone, and a vast population and consequently great questions o f national importance. I maintain that after Confederation the questions connected with local affairs will be so small and so entirely connec ted with particular localities that a staff o f permanent heads o f department will be far better for the colony than responsible THE GOVERNMENT GAZETTE EXTRAORDINARY. government. I make this statement from conviction. I am perfectly free to take any course I like, notwithstanding I am an Executive Councillor. My position has not in any way curtailed my views. I could have advised responsible government i f I had thought proper, and would have done so if I had thought it desirable for this colony. I f anyone believes that the Organic Act does not allow responsible government to be obtained at any time let him move to make clause 19 specially applicable to this co lony. Hon Dr Helmcken—It is in the terms already, only it is not specially named. Hon Dr Carrall—Well, name it specially and put it in ; I will support it i f anyone proposes it We know what His Excellency’s intention is with regard to giving representation in the new Council, but we do not know the measure of it . I f there is an overwhelming majority for responsible government in all districts, electors will take care to send responsible government members to the next Council, i f the people are determined to have this p r ic e less boon, let them send men who will say they will have it. I feel impelled to administer a soft and gentle rebuke to the Hon member for New Westminster, who has, I must confess, won my esteem by his mainly, straightforward support of these resolutions; but I must take exception to his language, it has been too emphatic—unintentionally o f course—because led away by the subject. He has used inflammatory language which be had better not have uttered, language which was not exactly in accordance with what I conceive to be correct. That clause in the Governor’s speech which speaks o f our not being fit to govern ourselves. Governor Musgrave has never said so; i f he had I should have taken it as a personal insult. I say, as a British Columbian, I am capable o f governing myself, and it we can individually govern ourselves it is fair to suppose that the colony, as a whole, can govern itself. I f you had the whole population comeatable altogether, so that they could be parallel like an army, and you could make them give expression to their views, and out o f that get a government, it might be practicable; but instead o f that, here we are with a scattered population, isolated centres separated from each other; the majority are here for the sole purpose of making money, and they don’ t feel that anxiety that has been represented about responsible government; they want to be governed as cheaply as possible I f I am wrong, if it turns out at the polls that even a trifling majority are in favor of responsible government, they can h ave it. The iron heel o f Canada is all nonsense. Governor Musgrave is the man we have to deal with, and I say that responsible government is a relief to any Governor, for it comes between him and the people Governor Musgrave says that it is his (I paraphase) my duty with my experience to give fair and frank advice to the people ; to tell them what I think is for their good. I f they determine differently to my advice the fault is with them. Supposing that Governor Musgrave had put responsible Government in as a condition, and had thrust it upon the people, would not the respectable minority who are against it have said, or possibly, and as I think probably have said, His Excellency had acted unwisely. This question has been before the people ; they would have been justified in jumping at the gilded bait o f responsible Government i f the Governor had not proposed a new system; but as he has done so the people will do well to consider before they swallow the barbed hook that lies under the bait. I desire to disclaim speaking in the interest o f officials their position would, so far as I believe, not be injured in any way by the introduction o f responsible Government. Those among them who were commissioned in England (I mean the heads o f Departments) will be rendered so independent that they will be above fighting after their own interests. I think it unlikely that they will remain here. As to the balance o f officials, if Canada is as liberal now as of old, or as liberal as Australia, they will be well provided for whether we have responsible Government or not. Probably they will be “ utilized," since that is the term we are to use. I claim for the system which His Excellency has foreshadowed, that this more suitable to the present circumstances o f this colony than any other system which can be given us Responsible Government has acted well in large communities, but in small ones I doubt its efficiency. It is like a painted ship on a painted ocean. If it were obtained in a small colony like this, there would be a constant game o f battledore and shuttle cock going on—in to-day, out to-morrow. Fancy the honorable member for Victoria City presiding at the Lands and Works Department one day, and I, having paid him all the compliments I could, come over another day to have an interview with the Chief and find that there has been a change of Ministry, there is another man in. My ideas may be wrong, it so, they can be corrected at the polls. If I were a man of property, with a large stake in the colony, I should decidedly object to responsible Government. I have given my opinion candidly and honestly. I may never sit at this Council Board again. I have given my advice to his Excellency, to this Board, and to my constituents conscientiously. I f I am wrong the people will correct me. I speak from conviction. No doubt there is talent in British Columbia: no doubt there is plenty of administrative ability ; there are many better men than myself, I am very sure, and that is one reason that I oppose responsible Government. (Laughter.) But the main difficulty is that the best men won’ t come here ; the shaft is blown here, the wheat remains behind. On motion of Hon. Mr. Drake the debate was adjourned to Monday. Monday, March 21st, 1870. Hon Mr Ring rose to resume the debate, and said: Mr Chairman, I feel assured that the House will accord me leave to say a few words. There have been submitted for the consideration o f this House two amendments, and in the observations of the movers two points of argument have been adduced, the first founded on supposed reasoning, and the second in the way o f threats and military argument, grounded on the possibility o f the government refusing to insert this condition. I desire to disengage myself from this latter argument. When I hear anything tantamount to a threat from the people against the Executive I desire to repudiate it. Hon members who put such a picture of warfare before us talk bunkum. I address my humble petition to His Excellency, but if his judgment is against us, I say to him stand to your point and do not give way to threats; listen to no arguments as to what may happen in the nature ol threats; stand to your points. I say to Executive members, don’ t yield to threats, don’t be moved by them. I support the principle o f responsible government, but I do so constitutionally. I say to Executive members, I trust you will yield to reason and argument but not to threats. I say we can ask for responsible government without the leave of the Organic Act; but I say let us repudiate ail connection with Canada until we have secured responsible government; let us not wait till we are surrounded by Canadians. With regard to the railway, I say that in the life o f the youngest amongst us we shall not get it; but we must make this the main, resolution, without responsible government let us have no Confederation. Better bear the ills we have than fly to others that we know not o f Let as not run the risk of having to ask Canada for responsible government. Make it the emphatic s in e qua non that we must have responsible government or no Confederation. Hon Mr H umphreys—Out o f deference to the amendment offered b y the Hon member for New Westminster, (Mr Robson,) I ask the leave of the House to withdraw my motion so that the amendment, the latter part o f which I like better than my own, may stand. Hon A t to rn e y General—I regret very much that a discussion so inapposite, so totally unnecessary, should have been forced on by the other side o f the House at a time so inopportune. I am glad that the Hon member for Lillooet has withdrawn his motion ; it leaves the Council to deal with the amendment o f the hon member for New Westminster, and I deeply regret that the hon gentleman did not accept the invitation to give up a special field-day to the discussion of responsible Government, as suggested by myself after we bad passed clause 15 of the Terms This I stated at the time the House was quite competent to do. Then members on this side of the House might have freely joined in the discussion, perhaps some might have supported the principle, but n o ! The hon proposer o f the amendment, with the light of battle in his eye, had refused every suggestion; and afterwards, when he began to find out his mistake, it was too late, there was nothing for it but to go on. The melee had begun ; the glove is down ; the visors are closed, and the lists barred I t cannot be put off. If the hon member for New Westminster had been opposed to responsible government he could not have devised a coarse more adapted than mixing up the question with terms, for shelving responsible government for the session. The point which requires special notice and correction is that nearly all speakers during the debate seem to think that the Governor alone could grant any alteration of Constitution t hat may be required, merely for the asking, but this is a mistake; he cannot The Constitution can only be changed by the same power that created it—the Imperial Parliament and the Queen i n Council. The Governor can only recommend. I t is for the Home Government to say what that change shall be. As to the able speech of the hon member for New Westminster, the eloquence of which I was forced to applaud in spite o f myself, it was an argument based upon fallacious premises throughout, asserting that we should only have a representative majority o f one, which could only leal to a false conclusion, and I take it that the hon member is in favor o f responsible government as a sine qua n on , else why all this tall talking of blood, wading knee deep in blood, why this encouragement of rebellion, in defence of our rights and the l ik e , and yet I understood the hon member for New Westminster to pay that he does not make responsible government a sine qua non f or Confederation. Hon Mr Robson—I said nothing of the kind. I do not choose to state whether or not I would make it a sine qua non. Hon A ttorney General—I have an accurate recollection, and have a note o f it, and I ask, the hon member to state whether he will make it a sine qua non. Hon Chief Commissiones—I understood the hon member for New Westminster to say that Confederation would not be satisfactory to the colony without responsible government, but that he would not pledge himself to make it a sine qua non. Hon Mr Robson—I said further that I did not pledge myself that the people would not. Hon Attorney General—I then understand that the honorable member for New Westminster puts it not as a sine qua non. Hon Mr R obson—No, Mr. Chairman, I never said that. I will not be placed in such a position. I refuse to have such an issue forced upon us. Attorney General—Either the honorable member puts it one way or the other; one of two opposites must be true. I can quite understand, and must prefer the direct and simple issue o f the honorable member for Victoria District, for immediate responsible Government in any case, either with or without confederation. I say, sir, that the question is in no way connected with the discussion o f this clause. I said that responsible Government ought not to be considered until after the Council is reconstituted with an increased representation, as shadowed forth in his Excellency’s speech. I have said that we shall have the sole control o f the matter in our own hands i f we have confederation. I say we, because I identify myself with this country. I speak on this matter as a citizen. I say that i f we have confederation we shall have an opportunity of getting responsible Government. I f we have not Confederation then we shall have increased representation, and under that we can get responsible Government if the country as a unit goes for it. Honorable members are complicating this question. I cannot imagine that it was the intention o f the honorable member for New Westminster to complicate the question. I have too much respect for him to allow myself to suppose so, it is impossible, and that he wished to force a negative, is equally impossible. It is an error of judgment in my opinion. I f it had been left to the Council separately it would have left honorable members more at liberty to consider the question freely. I was, in common with other members carried away in admiration o f the outburst of oratory o f the honorable member. But there was an allusion—a warning. It is said that it was not a threat; but there was talk o f shouldering muskets, and of blood and bloodshed, as if that was the proper way to get civil rights. I protest against these threats, these turgid speeches which oppress the ears o f those who wish to listen to argument and reason. As to the opposition o f the Government members it arises from no dislike to the system on the part of the head o f the Executive. Responsible Government interposes a barrier between the people and the Governor, which is most useful to the Governor. I say that we are not in a position to take advantage of responsible Government. I f the country thinks it necessary or desirable what is there to prevent our getting it when we choose to ask for it. The honorable member for New Westminster himself told us that the Imperial Government were always ready to step in, and yet he hints at violence and disturbance. When the honorable Chief Commissioner of Lands and Works proposed a resolution last session, which was seconded by myself, with respect to a change in the Constitution, asking for a Council with a majority o f one o f representative members, honorable members said w e don’ t want the change, and voted i t down. I f we had secured this we should have been a step further in advance than we are in constitutional progress. I say we must hesitate before any body constituted as this Council is, can pass resolutions o f such a nature. Any such resolutions ought to express the full and deliberate opinions o f the country. As to the special merits of responsible Government itself, it is hardly necessary to argue it here at such an inopportune time. I shall therefore merely 4a THE GOVERNMENT GAZETTE EXTRAORDINARY. 5A say that I think it totally inapplicable at present to the circumstances of British Columbia, where population is so sparse, and lies at the circumference of a circle which contains an area of 300,000 square miles, and where representation is so difficult that the form suggested would be the most expensive that could be adopted, and instead of preventing agitation will be likely to increase it. Much of the population is alien, and in any case this Council is not the proper body to pass u p o n it . If, however, the country is of a different opinion they can say so at the polls, and there is no power can prevent their getting responsible Government. But I would ask what makes the system so particularly attractive to honorable members who advocate it? We are told that it is solely, because it will be good for the colony, but there is no attempt to prove the proposition that has been set up. Another thing strikes m e as coming with a very bad grace from those who support this recommendation. It presupposed a distrust of Canada, and assumes that men of the large experience of Canadian Statesmen, and so reliable as they are, are not to be trusted to yield to a general cry from the country for enlarged representative institutions. I don’t think that this Is the time to go into the question. I say. then, that whenever responsible Government is wanted it can be had. I need hardly refer to the position of official members in this matter. The terms already passed by the House so far as this question is in any way connected with Confederation, leave the officials free to express their opinions. I must, myself, Vote against this recommendation, and I press upon the honorable members to do the same in order to prevent the complication of the terms with any such irrelevant question. Hon Chief Commissioner—I must endeavor in as few words as possible to state the position ef the Government members upon the subject now before the House. 1 fully understand that it was imperative upon some hon members to bring forward this question of responsibility at some period of the present session, having advocated it by speech and pen as the specific remedy for the ills that the colony was laboring under. Consistency demanded that the question should be brought up by them for discussion; it was a iogicai necessity. Inexorable state , I say, impelled certain hon members to advocate responsible government. I h a d , however, hoped that the hon members who advocated it would have reserved it for separate consideration, instead of bringing It up as an amendment to this clause now under consideration (Mr Robson - no, not an amendment) Virtually it is an amendment. If this clause had prescribed that any future alteration in the constitution should have been d e p endent on Canada, then I could see the desirability of hon members on the other side of the House taking exception to it; but as it is I confess I am at a loss to comprehend their position. Although, as I said, inexorable fate compelled hon members to bring the subject forward, it is a mistake to bring it up in a Council constituted as this is, especially when the Governor h as so distinctly expressed his view in opposition to the inauguration of responsible government at the present time. It would surely have been much more to the advantage of the cause they advocate for hon members to have postponed the consideration of the question for the more representative House shadowed forth in His Excellency's speech. I say shadowed forth, for on reflection it must be plain to all hon members that His Excellency was not in a position to tell what the constitution of that House will be. He does not know. He has recommended certain changes for Imperial sanction; they may or may not be favorably considered. His Excellancy does, however, tell you that the representative element will be larger, and i think, therefore, that it would have been wiser on the part of the representative members who advocate responsible government to have left it to the next Council instead of bringing it forward while the present resolutions are under discussion. The subject, if not positively irrelevant, is not counseled with this resolution, which simply provides, as a matter of term, power to change the constitution, in accordance with the Organic Act, when the people desire it. In common with the hon Attorney General, I am surprised that hon members who cordially support Confederation should be afraid to trust the Dominion Government upon the question. I a m surprised at the inconsistency of those who tell you that the people could not get responsible government under Confederation, and that the wishes of the people would not be allowed to prevail. 1 am surpr ised particularly at the hon member of New Westminster expressing any doubt upon this subject I, as an individual member of this community, would willingly leave the interest of the colony to the guardianship of the Canadian Government. If I did not think that that Government would exercise whatever power it might nave for the benefit of the people, instead of, as suggested by hon members, for its own argrandisement, I would have no Confe deration. If under Confederation there would be no chance of responsible government, how can the hon member expect to get it from a Council constituted as this is? However, as the subject has been brought forward for discussion, it behoves us to consider it upon its merits, These were two propositions before the House. The hon member for Lilloeet has withdrawn his, which was in reality but a vague expression of an abstract opinion in favor of responsible government, a recommendation in general terms. We have now to confine our attentions to the amendment of the hon member for New Westminster, the preamble of which states that Confederation will not be satisfactory to the people without responsible government. The resolution itself although embodying the same principle as the one which has been withdrawn, contemplates a practical step towards obtaining the subject recommended, by addressing the Governor. The hon member for New Westminster was careful to reserve his own opinion, but he was very positive that Confederation without responsible government would not be acceptable to the people. Coming now to the subject and matter of the speeches of the two hon members, I find that the arguments of the hon member for Lillooet, are simply invoctives, his entire logic is abuse of the Government and the persons composing it. I have always understood that assertion is not fact, and that invective is not argument. It may be that my inability to appreciate the force of his remarks arises from my not possessing the qualification which he told us was essential to a proper understanding of the people and the people's affair. It may be that I have not 'eaten and drunk and slept with the people,' and cannot, therefore, rightly estimate the strength of the demonstration which general and indiscriminate abise pf government officials may convey to some minds. As to the hon member's earnestness and belief in his care, his conscientiousness in the discharge of his duty to his constituents and to the colony, had we ever had any doubt of it, his positive and repeated assurances of the honesty of his intentions in this matter, of his unfaltering determination to do his duty to upon he prpresents, must have forced convictions upon us, that, which giving him full credit for singleness of purposes, I must take leave to remark on his singular mode of recommending the subject to the favorable consideration of this Council, since his argument in its favor is to heap general accusation and vitaperation on the official members of thus Council whom he invites to form with him by voting in favor of his views, to confirm his view of their utter baseness and worthlessness. 1 shall not place myself in opposition to such a line of argument. But, sir, the argument of the hon member for New Westminster is of a very different character. I congratulate him and I congratulate the House on the manner in which the matter was treated by him. and especially as regards the officials. I acknowledge the courteous manner in which he touched on these points in his arguments which affected the members at this end of the table. I t is inseparable from the discussion of this question in this House that it must to some extent partaka of a personal character, it must almost mean a vote of want of confidence in Government officials. The smallness of the community reduces it almost to a question amongst individuals. and as the Government members have been placed, unnecessarily and inexpediently, as I think, to some extent upon their defence, I must speak plainly on some points, but in doing so I must deprecate any idea of giving offence. I say. then, that responsible government is not desirable, and is not applicable to this colony at present, is practicably unworkable. And here I would deprecate the impression which is being so studiously instilled i n to the people of this colony concerning what has been said of the unfitness of the colony for responsible government. His Excellency the Governor has never said, nor has any member of the Government ever said that the people are unfit, individually, to govern themselves. I say that, man for man, this community will compare favorably with any people on this coast. ( Hear, hear, from the Attorney General.) Nor is it even the smallness of the population that I consider to be the great objection . although 1 admit that this is a drawback; but it is the scattered character of that population. It w ould be practically impossible to organise electoral districts so that they should properly represent the interests of the separate parts, and of the whole colony, as Victoria is the centre of wealth, and intelligence also, if yon will, under present circumstances the government would be centralized in the hands of Victorians, who would thus rule the colony, and this would be objectionable (Hear, hear, from Mr Holbrook,) an d I say also that there would be a great difficulty in getting proper representatives to represent the respective districts. 1 do not agree with the hon member who has stated that only the chaff of the people is blown Into this House. for 1 say, sir, that this Council, constituted as it is, has proved that men fit to represent the people do come here. Responsible government will come as a matter of course when the community is fit for it, but that form of government is not fitted for communities in their infancy. It has nerer been so considered. Look abroad into the world and you wit! find large populations without responsible government There is no necessity to look far off to see whether the Anglo-Saxon race must necessarily have responsible government Look across the straits , where there is a population of, I suppose, 30,000 people, and there they h ave neither responsible government nor representative institutions. Look at Oregon , also with no representation until the population exceeded 45,000 Look at the Red River settlement, also with a population larger than ours they do not apply for responsible government. It doe s not follow according to the rule of Anglo-Saxon minds that this form of government m ust prevail. 1 do not think the sort of responsibility which is advcated would be suitable to this colony at present, or would promote its true interests. If 1 did think it desirable I should be found amongst its most cordial advocates, as this is a matter open for discussion without Government direction. But I think , sir, that our present form ol Government is practically a more real responsibility to the people than that proposed by the hon member f r New Westminster, this form w hicb the bon member for Lillooet finds it so easy to animadvert upon. F or w e are in reality if not directly responsible t0 the people. We, as servants of the crown, are directly and immediately responsible to the Governor, and the Governor i s responsible to the Queen, who is the guardian of the people's rights. This is no mere idea, for the fact of responsibility has been, over and over again, proved. If you have any good grounds of complaint you know where to lay them and get redress. This responsibility which we owe is more real, less fluctuating, less open to doubtful influences, and under it the righs of the whole country are secured and protected, and not those of the majority to the prejudice of the minority, as under the so called responsible government, which really means party government, advocated so warmly by the hon member for New Westminster, W hy, sir, the hon member has admitted to you that under that system the government of the day might come down to pass measures or unfair means. Hon Mr Robson—No, I made use of no each words ; what were my words? Hon M r Trutcb—The hon member said, and I took down his words, that under responsible government the government might come down to the House and carry measures by means not excessively fair. 1 say that this cannot occur under the present system, that no corruption can be charged against this g overnment. 1 think the House it capable of being remodelled. I would rather see a larger element of representative government in this council with such a majority that the government would have no opportunity of passing a measure objectionable to the people, as understood by their representatives; such a majority as I advocated js a resolution submitted to this Council. But the hon members for New Westminster, for Victoria District, and for Lillooet, tell you that the people desire responsible government, that they must have it and will have it. I say, sir, that if they do say so, which I very much doubt, it is because the population have been educated up to it by those who have agitated the subject through the Fress and through speeches; some no doubt press for it from cooviction and some with a view to serving their own ends, but I believe, sir, that what the people really want is very much an administration of the government as will tend to bring back prosperity to the colony. You \are told that the present officials have no sympathy with the people, that they are not of the people, that they move in a different sphere, and constitute a class by themselves, Is this true- or is it not rather the fact that persons who have ends to serve have put us in a class by ourselves? The hon member says that the hand of the benefactors of the people must be callous with labor. When, I ask, are those throughout the world who have labored most for the people by speech and pen? I say that the real statesmen who have come most to advance the truest interests of the people, have not sprung from the ranks of those whom the hon member classes as the people. The hon member for New Westminster says that the present government officials are well estimable and honest but that they cannot enjoy the confidence of the people because they are not true officials, they are not elected by them. And, he as able as we might, and as honest and work 6A THE GOVERNMENT GAZETTE EXTRAORDINARY. as we might, and do what we might for the people’s good, we could not gain their confidence because we are not directly resonsible to them. And the hon member sympathized with us for the position! N o w , sir, is it be true, as he says, that the government have not the confidence of the community when, he says, they deserve it. whose is the fault? I say, sir, it is the fault of those who, by voice and pen, have for years sedulously prejudiced the public mind of this community against that government, not by pointing out faults to be remedied, but by genera1 and indiscriminate fault finding, descending to personal abuse, and even to the verge of sc u rility. We have striven to do our duty- Hon members do not advance arguments but content themselves with saying that we are unpopular. I tell you why : if false impressions have gone abroad on this point let the responsibility of those impressions rest where it ought, for I say that it has been the business of certain persons to prejudice the public mind against government officials; let them settle the question of motives with their own consciences and with the people. If the officials in this House occupied the positions which would be held by officials under party government, I could understand the persistent course of opposition offered by some members present; but when I see the changed position, that there is no responsible government, and that our mouths are closed and our pen cannot be used in self-defence, I feel that we have been struck in a cowardly manner, and let the public defend the motives of those who have attacked us. I invite all in this Houses or out of it to aid us to carry out the government, and to act in a reasonable way in promoting the general interests of the colony. Whether we are to have responsible government or not I don’t know. I feel that it will come in good time, when the circumstances of the colony are so changed as to admit of its adaption— I think sooner with Confederation than without it—but whether we have it or not, I ask hon members to assist us instead of endeavoring to complicate matters and retard the progress of the colony. 1 ask them to give us some credit for good intentions. Now, sir, one remark in conclusion: the hon member for N ew Westminster, in his powerful oration, has not only allured us with the prospects of popularity under responsible government, but he has, I will not say threatened, but warned us of the result of our opposing him in this matter. He tells us that unless responsible government be conceded the cause of Confederation will be ruined, that the people would not have C onfederation without responsible government, this in fact is embodied in the preamble of his resolution. Sir, I have cordially supported Confederation because I honestly believe that it w ill be for the b enefit of the local interests of this community as well as for the security and consolidation of Imperial interests ; but I believe that this community is not ready for responsjble government; I will not. therefore. do what I consider w rong that good may come ; I will not vote for responsible government far the sake of gaining Confederation. I, for one, say, if the people won't have Confederation without responsible government, if they regard responsible government as the main object of Confederation, it they do not appreciate the real a dvantages of Confederation, let Confederation wait a while. The Governor has sent down resolutions which he thinks can be carried out, and we hold that. whether under confederation or not, this matter of responsible government will ultimately have to be settled by the vote of the people. When the proper time comes we shall, I say, as a matter of course, have responsible government, and that time will arrive sooner under Confederation than without it. I trust the Dominion Government; I do not think they will go against the will of the people. I believe that in this, as in other matters, if they exercise influence at all, it w ill be for the good of the country. A government of liberal institutions cannot be expected to oppose the wishes of the people in proper and reasonable matters. Responsible government ought not to be a condition of Confederation, and I say that in these resolutions it is very properly left to be settled in a new and more fully representative Council, which the Governor has told us he is going to obtain Imperial sanction to establish. But if Confederation is to depend on this question of responsible government then I say let it be the test also of the reality of the supporters of Confederation Hon Mr R o b s o n—I expect the privilege of a general reply, but I desire to explain, now that the Hon. Chief Commissioner has made an unfair use of what I said about "horny hands and patched garments.” I disclaim h aving used it in that connection attributed to me, his remarks are unfair Hon Mr Walkem—I think on an important question of this kind every member should give a reason for his vote. I have given the matter great consideration, and had intended entering somewhat fully into the discussion, but the Hon. Chief Commissioner h as anticipated me. I have been utterly astonished as I listened to what fell from him. I entirely coincide with him in his argument and in his views. Indeed, I can hardly h elp but thinking that either he has copied my notes or his I must congratulate myself on coming to this conclusion. On the same grounds I congratulate the H ouse on the good temper, good taste intelligence and ability with which this question has been launched for discussion. The main speech for the honorable member for Victoria District did not deign to express his views, has been that of the honorable member for New Westminster. As I listened to that speech, sir, one of the best ever uttered in this House, I almost felt that for five long years I had been wrong, he almost made a convert of m e, but upon looking a little more closely into it I find that it is based u p on false premises ; his arguments are fallacious, and his conclusions wrong. Tbe honorable member says that responsible Government is a principle which may be applied either to the Great Eastern or to a dairy churn, or to a lady’s watch; that it is a principle capable of being carried out by three, or three hundred. This is utterly incorrect; it is not a principle but a form, one element of w hich is responsib ility to the people It is a form adopted by the people. But it does not follow as a matter of induction that it can be used or carried out in every place or by every community. In 1837 the rebellion in Canada for the purpose of acquiring responsible Government took place. The rebellion was raised and the question agitated simply for changing the form of Government. W hat was the population? It was in the neighborhood of 2,000,000 in 1837, and of 2 500,000 in 1861. Look at the difference of the population of this colony , after deducting the aliens and females, there is scarcely a voting population through the whole colony of 3,000. Have the whole county mapped out and show me how much further the Goveruor can go in usefully extending the representation. We have nine members, and out of these nine, under responsible Government, we should have to elect a Colonial Secretary, an Attorney General, a Chief Commissioner of L ands and Works, and probably two other Cabinet Ministers, altogether five in office and four struggling for power. M ake the whole number eighteen and you then have a constant struggle for power, a struggle such as we have not had in this colony before, and such as I hope we shall not see. There are virtually two ends of the colony w hich represent all the wealth and property of the community, Victoria and Cariboo. Cariboo would be contending for the repeal of road tolls, and Victoria would be contending that they ought to be paid. It may be said that these general questions of taxation will be left to the Dominion Government, but there are many other subjects which will create differences between the two ends of the colony. The honorable member for New Westminster says if we gain without responsible Government we shall go in with agitation. Does any one believe that if we had responsible Government to-morrow, politicians will have no subject on which to agitate Political agitation will never cease. Let us go further. As the honorable Chief Commissioner says we have the United States advocating responsible Government, and that form of it which is said to be the best in theory, a form in reality democratic, but the people are not educated to he extent of the principle itself. Americans are averse not only to granting small but large territories, the freedom which we now ask. They say, " You shall be a Territory until you are properly educated.” For instance, there is Washington Territory, with a population of 27,000, sends a Delegate to Congress, who has no vote. Tacota, another Territory has been refused admission as a state until it has a population larger than it now possesses I am just reminded about Alaska, which is not even a territory yet. General Thomas reported against giving it any other than a military form of Government. How can we then expect responsible Government with our population. I know that there are honorable members wavering ; their interests tells them to vote one way, their Conscience points to another I say, vote according to your conscience. 1 say that a village can never have responsible Government. I maintain that it would prove a curse through the agitation that would follow instead of a blessing. I coincide with the honorable member for New Westminster as to what he says as to callous hands. I believe there are men with tattered garments in the upper country quite capable of giving a sensible vote upon all questions likely to come before a Council in this colony, but we find that they have too much to do, they have no time for politics, they have to earn their own b read. I believe that the honorable member for Cariboo has uttered the true sentiments of the great majority of the district. I do not believe that Cariboo is favorable to responsible Government. Those gentlemen with the patched garments and callous hands have the same opportunity that the member for New Westminster has had of coming into the House. He has told us with pride of his hard work as a pioneer on the F raser river, and to-day we hear him advocating with most eloquent language, his views upon this great question. His voice has had much to do with shaping the councils of this House, and 1 ask, are these doors shut to any man in the colony of equal talent with the honorable gentleman who can be found willing to devote their time to the service of their country? I do not feel in the servile position of being obliged to vote one way or the other. I am as free to vote as the honorable member himself. I shall give my vote to the best of my ability. I believe that no compulsion has been brought to bear upon any member of this House, official or otherwise. The latter part of the speech of the honorable gentleman (Mr Robson) is hardly worthy of the former, it contains language which I am very sorry he has used, language which makes me believe that it is not from conviction, but that it is intended to go for h to the world to s ign up the people ; excellent stump oratory, if without intending the slightest disrespect I may use the term. I believe it is not the wish of the property owners of Victoria to have responsible Government. Do you suppose, sir, that property owners are going, willingly, to intrust their interests to persons of whom they know nothing? I do not dread professional politicians, 1 believe they are as useful as any other professional men in their way, but I say, as a fact, there are no politicians here with the exception of those who have devoted their time to politics. Why, 1 ask, is there so great an antipathy to leaving this question for the people to decide at the polls? “ Give us,” says the other side, " an opportunity of educating ourselves, so that our mistakes, when made, may be remedied ” 1 say that there is no better education than this Council in which honorable members have education before they come to responsible Government, for under the scheme foreshadowed by the Governor, the position will be very little inferior to responsible Government. Depend upon it, if the Canadian Government think we can manage responsible Government they will give it to us, they will be glad to get rid of the question. I say, however, this question is being agitated at an imoportune time. I, for one would not consent to trust my interests to any such change. I do not believe in the present form of Government, but if the form foreshadowed by the Governor be carried out, it will give the people a system very little inferior, as I have said, to responsible Government, and infinitely more workable. I trust that honorable members will give due weight to the remarks of other speakers who have preceded me upon this question, and will well consider their votes. Hon Mr Drake— Mr. Chairman, I have a strong object on to this clause being inserted; it never ought to have been in the terms. It presumes that this Colony is willing to go into Confederation with the form of Government that we have at present; it seems to have been put in as a sop to Canada; it ought to have been left out, I cannot see why it was inserted, or what advantage it can possibly be to us. If we go into Confederation bound hand and foot with the same form of government as now, we shall have no power to change the form. We shall then have Canada as a Queen Regnant; we shall then have an Executive who will if so directed, vote against responsible government. This colony would be a preserve for Canadian statesmen and Canadian patronage ; we shall be no more advanced then than now. Without going into argument I may be pardoned, I trust, if I quote three propositions of John Stuart Mill on responsible government First, " Do the people require it; or are they unwillinh to accept it?" W e are told that this has not been made a question; 1 deny this statement. It has been made, a question, more or less, in Victoria at every election; every election depends more or less on this point. Second, " Are the people willing to take the burdens which are imposed on them by such a form? " I say that we have the answer to this proposition in the fact of there being people willing to come here where they are practically useless. Do not persons come forward to represent the people? A very large majority of the people take part in every election. Third, " Are the people willing and able to do that which will enable the government to perform its functions properly? " This I contend is the condition of the colony. T h e main argument of the Chief Commissioner in his very able speech, a broad argument and very well put is that the population is scattered I say this argument cannot be used w ith effect. We are told that the Government would fall into the hands of Victoria as the centre of population and wealth; no great harm if it did. Victoria is dependent upon ad parts of the colony and they on her ; the interests are identical. Another objection that has been raised is that we cannot get men of proper intelligence and qualification for THE GOVERNMENT GAZETTE EXTRAORDINARY, positions of honor and trust. Looking round this council board we see men who have come out to this colony to make their own fortunes and homes; out of them the present members of the Government have been chosen, and out of our present population there can be found an equal number of men who can properly fulfil the duties of the Government. I cannot see that it is impossible to find proper men. If we find men willing to sit in this Council now we shall find plenty ready and anxious to share in the burdens of responsible government. The sufficiency or insufficiency of population is not an element in this question. The United States has been pointed out to us as an example. I say. there is no responsible government in the United States, it is an absolute despotic democracy absolutely irresponsible to the people except once in four years. There is n o such thing as responsibility in the form of government of the United States, the only means of getting rid of a minister is by impeachment. The hon member for Cariboo, in his rambling speech, gives us no new argument against responsible government; he certainly reiterated much that was forcibly put forward by the hon Chief Commissioner. I c a n well believe that the wheat was left at Cariboo and the chaff came here. Hon Mr Humphreys— Sir, I have listened to the speeches of the hon Chief Commissioner of Lands and Works and to the hon Government Nominee, and I find them difficult to answer because there is so little in them,; the only w a yv would be to have them printed and read them, they carry their answers with them. One non member says that ir rests on numbers; I say that intelligence is the only qualification for resp onsible government, numbers have nothing to do with it. If I err l am proud in erring with some ot the greatest men that England ever produced. The hon Chief Commissioner has admitted that the population, taken man for man, is equal to that of any country Then I say we have the proper qualification; let us have practical and n ot theoretical means of governing. What is really the case? Under the present form of government the people have to pay for the privilege and benefit of a few gentlemen sitting round this board. Take away this form of government and make it more liberal, and what is the danger? All the civil wars and troubles have not arisen from the uneducated, but from the ambition of the so called educated classes. The people have been the Conservatives who came forward to keep the country going; take away the so-called intelligent and educated classes and it will be no great loss, the laboring classes can always supply men to fill their places; but take away the working classed and you kill the world, the educated classes cannot fill their places. I n my opinion, Sir. the people want practical reality. They have endured too long the law’s delay. and the insolence of those in office. Why should we come here, year after year, to ask for a change in the form of Government? I think that responsible government should be a s in e q u a n o n of Confederation. I shall move an amendment to that effect. H on Dr Helmcken—Gre a t heavens! what terrible things are said and done in the name of the people. T o hear hon members talk one would think that they were the people, but the people are quiet while hon members are very loud. I intend to support the Government; I do not mean to say much for or against I take the position that the people can have responsible government when they want it, and their representatives ought to be satisfied to take it when the people really and seriously ask for it. Responsible government has been one of the watchwords of a certain set of politicians who wanted to bring on Confederation, government of from for and by the people, without regard to the material interests of the Colony—this means government by politicians. These gentlemen will sacrifice every benefit to the Colony for responsible government. Confederation to me means terms; to them it means pickings, office, place and power. This will be represented I am well aware, as being the result of being in the Executive Council; it is said that there is a great difference between the atmosphere of the two Councils, I acknowledge it. T here with closed doors people speak the truth without any ad captandum arguments addressed to the galleries; there people can state what their opinions really are ; here popularity has to be sought. W e are told that the people will fight for responsible Government That is mere nothing— words only. The honorable member for New Westminster in his able speec h erected a very handsome structure, but like most fancy structures, it will be a very expensive one. He wants a Government like Ontario, that is a Government of one House, with eighty members. For a Government of that kind not less than forty or fifty would be absolutely necessary. H on Mr Robson—-I never said like that of Ontario, but that we wanted the principle of responsible Government as existing in Ontario. H on Dr. Helmcken — Then why not bring in a scheme embodying it? The true principles of responsible Government can only exist satisfactorily with forty or fifty members in the House. It would cost very little short, of $20,000 per annum. That out of the very small amount, we are to get from Canada would reduce the amount likely to be available for public works to a fraction. You must have a large number, to work responsible Government, or more properly speaking, party Government. If we are to have it, I would not have the heads of Departments responsible to the people, at least not the working heads; if any head of a Department is to be responsible to the people, let it be the political head; but I would make the working heads of Departments permanent. I have found from my experience of the 0ld Vancouver Island House of Assembly, that policy frequently changes and turns round. The same thing would happen under responsible Government. If I wished tp oppose Confederation I believe that I could not do a better thing towards effecting my object than to vote for responsible Government, but I want to see the more material warns advanced by Confederation. I know that material interests were not the pivot, but that it was place, patronage and office, that was wanted. With regard to the present system of Government, it is very easy to say that it is bad, but I have listened to all the speeches and have not heard one word pf practical faultfinding with the present government—merely the assumption that the people desire change. This desire for change they have been educated to. I acknowledge many faults in the past, but we have now a new Executive, and we are promised a change in the form of government; but this is apart from Confederation altogether, it appears to me that the first thing we have to arrange is the money question, to get our material interests first settled, to make sure that this colony should be pecuniarily better off, to make the question of Confederation now turn upon material interest and not allow our material interests to be jeopardized by a cry for responsible government, not to allow responsible government to be the sauce to m ake the public swallow bad and unprofitable terms. All members have acknowledged tha t money is the basis of all governments; let us get that money I would not have the public vote for responsible government and f orget or put in the back ground, the money. Place the question upon material terms and the colony will demand profitable terms ; but mix it up with responsible government and you get a divided opinion upon it, and those who think responsible government every thing will vote for that to the exclusion of a ny terms, or, at all events, with unprofitable terms. There are doubtless, many who hope to live upon responsible government, but, sir, responsible government is not food and raiment. The people can live without responsible government but they cannot live upon it. Give them food and raiment first, the rest will follow in natural succession. These few words will give you my reasons for consenting to the arrangement proposed in the conditions. More than this, I am not pledged to responsible government, but I am pledged to representative institutions. The latter have been granted. My mission thus far is fulfilled. I have always asserted that we must take our steps to responsible government gradually. Having representative institutions, we can go on to the ether. No one ever stated that the people were unfit to govern themselves, all acknowledge that they have talent enough, but this I do assert, that thus far the people have shown an unwillingness to govern themselves — have taken but little interest in the matter. It is not that they are unfit, but unwilling; they prefer looking after their own business, it pays them better. I need not refer to the difficulty of getiing members, and doubtless some of us sit here from that cause, and it is no doubt true a s has been said that better could have been f ound outside. If you have responsible government it will fall into the hands of those who wish to make a living by it. No one has said that it would be economical— it would not be so. It would require at least thirty members to carry on party government, for six weeks at least every year, or $150 per diem for 36 days, which would amount to $5490 and then the mileage would come to as much more, say,altogether $10 000. Add to these the salaries of the political heads, say five at $2000 per annum, and then you have the nice little sum of $20,000 a year. Then, I suppose, each Min»ster would require a pension when he w ent out. The real executive officers would remain then as now, and would have to be paid nearly as much as at present. The truth is there would be a great difficulty in getting members, and without a large body of members it could not be carried on. You would find that the best men would avoid politics, and soon there would be very great corruption. There is a great deal of talk about voting away the people’s money, but it must be borne in mind that a part of that money, under Confederation will come from Canada, and she will have a right to see it properly expended. There is also a great deal of talk about hon official members voting their own salaries, but would not the same thing be done under responsible government? Have not hon representative members voted themselves salaries this present session? H on members say that if responsible government is not granted we will agitate I thought that every body was so much in favor of it that the people would rise, if it w ere not included in the terms, that there would be employment for every gunsmith in Victoria; and yet we are told we will agitate? Hon Mr R obson—I never said that; I said that the people would agitate Hon Dr Helmcken—It is much the same thing, the agitators will ‘beat the bush' once more, and they will perhaps be driving the birds for other people once again, if the people really desire responsible government. W hy is there any necessity for all this agitation? 1 admit that many of the people of Victoria desire it, and think that it can be carried out- Ask the scattered districts in the country and they will tell you that they do not know or c are about it, political opinion does not run high in the colony. I intend to support the government upon this clause, but I leave myself perfectly free to vote for responsible government if I think proper, I want to secure the material interests of the colony. Let the people say whether those material interests will be benefitted by Confederation, but not mix up the question of responsible government wit it. I a m perfectly willing to abide by the d ecision o f the people on responsible government, and on Confederation on Terms, separately. My sole desire is to see this country materially benefitted if the people want responsibility 1 will not say nay, but we must have good terms. At the polls responsible government might carry Confederation with very indifferent terms I am perfectly certain that the Government have acted wisely in not allowing the terms to be clogged with responsible government. I say don’t let responsible government take the place of material benefits. Hon Dr Carrall— Sir— I rise to take exception to what the hon and learned member for Victoria City said about being bound hand and foot to Canada In my remarks he can find no efforts catch votes, and no clap trap addressed to the galleries, but I advocate what may be unpopular from conviction. H on Mr Ba r n a r d—Sir—I agree with the bon Chief Commissioner that it is a pity that this question has been brought up not for I had m ade up my mind to vote for responsible government its entirety, but the hon member for New Westminster put to. the question to tbe hon Attorney-General, who said it must go on. Hon Attorney General—I said that as the non member for N ew Westminster and others insisted upon opening the discussion m u s t g o o n . Hon Mr Robson—I felt regret that it should be brought up now but when I asked if we could put it off, the hon Attorney General said it was too late. Hon attorney General -I offered the hon members for N ew Westminster and Lillooet every opportunity for discussing this important question upon a day to be set apart for the purpose. Hon Mr H umphreys—W hat 1 did was in consequence of what the hon Attorney General said at the commencement of the debate he invited recommendations, otherwise I should not have put my notice on the board Hon Mr Barnard—It was fully impressed on: my mind that the question should not be mixed up with the terms. I am astonished at the charge against representative members of trying to force this question upon the House at an inopportune time. I will leave it to the government to say whether it shall be left for another day or go on. Hon A t t o r n e y G e n e r a l—I say, again, now the debate has begun,; now the gauntlet is down, the debate must go on. Hon Mr Robson -Sir, this course is most unfair on the part of the government members. Let the House decide whether it will go on with this question now or postpone it. It seems to me that the hon Attorney General is resorting to a parliamentary manoeuver in forcing this matter on. It is a matter that representative members only ought to vote on. We s hall have a large majority representative members on this question and that is all we want. I say that the Attorney General did not fairly answer my question as to whether, by passing this resolution, we should shut the door to further discussion of the question during the present session Hon Ch ie f C om m is s io n e r- l should now object to the resolution being withdrawn, as the question has been discussed let us take a decision on upon it, it would be unwise to postpone the question. 7A THE GOVERNMENT GAZETTE EXTRAORDINARY. H on Mr H u m p h r e y s—I think, sir, the matter cannot now be postponed, let us fight it out and have done with it. Hon Mr R o b s o n—I say, Sir, that this debate may be postponed, and if the government vote is given against the postponement we shall koow the reason. Hon Mr Barnard—The hon Chief Commissioner said that he should take no adverse vote on this resolution as a vote of want of confidence. I don’t want that. Won’t hon government members help us ? Hon Dr Carrall—The opposition say that the government ought not to have put such a resolution on the terms, let us take that issue. Hon Mr Barnard—It was not my desire to hamper the government ; I desired 10 give a hearty support to the government, and, at the same time, to do my duty to my constituents. I have never felt the weight of responsibility as I feel it to d ay: I feel that I am about casting a vote which will affect for weal or woe the destiny of this fine Province. I am convinced that if a majority of the elected members of this Council vote ‘aye7 to day on this question, responsible government will be inaugurated conjointly with Confederation. It is beyond a question that the intelligent portion of the community are in favor of responsible government, but there is a grave question in regard to its adaptation to the colony. The words coming from His Excellency are worthy of careful consideration. They contain strong reasons against the introduction of responsible government. Public opinion is not settled on the Island. The hon senior member for Victoria city has shown in his remarks that there is a great want of settled principle in the colony The principal men of Victoria are averse to taking upon themselves the duties and labor of legislating for the country. Men on standing and wealth stand aloof. The merchants, manufacturers and professional men take no interest in the matter of legislation. There is a great difficulty in getting good representative men. There are, I admit, many good reasons which might be urged against the measure, and I have no doubt that dissatisfaction, to some extent m ay ensue. I agree with the Commissioner of Lands and Works, in his remarks about the press influencing the public unfavorably to the government, but the blame is not in the press but in that system of government which keeps the rulers silent, the members of the government ought to be in a position to defend themselves both by pen and speech I have glanced at a few reasons against the admission of responsible government, but I will now look at the other side. Look at the fact of all the larger subjects, under union, being dealt with by the Federal power. This fact of itself is as strong an argument as we need. What hon member can go to his constituents and tell them that he thinks the local business of this colony could be managed better at Ottawa than it can be by ourselves? The official members or this government will no doubt avail themselves of the retiring pension, and appointees from Ottawa will take their places. Will these latter officials have to be pensioned off by this colony when we adopt responsible government? This is a strong objection to entering the union under a system like the present. This colony m ay be asked to pension another set of officials. Will the people be satisfied with this sort of government if we are to have appointees from Ottawa? There are a class of men w ho oppose Confederation on this ground. They would prefer remaining as they are with the officials nominated from Downing-street, rather than from Ottawa. It is often asserted that this colony is not ready. How long are we to wait? Canada was told the same story when she had a population of 600,000 All the other Provinces were told the same thing. Must we wait for such an increase, or must we fight as did Canada? Throw us on our own resources as a colony and we will soon learn valuable lessons in the science of government. There were gentlemen of good families and of good education, who came here in early dsys, who had never suffered privations of any sort before they came here ; sent out to make fortunes, or, at ail events, homes for themselves ; their roughing it was rough indeed bad news had come from the mines, the avenues of trade were closed there were no agricultural pursuits for them to turn to, the consequence was that they had to lie round hotels; after failing to get government employment, for which, as a matter of course, they applied, some kept bars whilst waiting for remittances. the reason was that they never had been taught self-reliance ; we shall be in the same position if we are constantly to have rulers from England, or Canada, but throw us on our own resources and we shall succeed. Self-reliance is the best means of education in politics as in anything else. If our rulers are sent us from England or Ottawa w e will always lack self-reliance. Self-reliance is written on every line of the British North American Act. Rely upon yourselves, is the cry of the people of England. It is better to grapple with the difficulties now when the issues are small and comparatively unimportant, and should we make blunders they will not be so serious w hen our interests are small; and for what errors we do commit, the consequences will fall upon ourselves. W e will, no doubt, blunder at first and there may be chaff blown here. If responsible government will bring the scum to the top, dross will go to the bottom. The scum will be ladled off —the chaff will be blown away by the breath of public opinion. The Governor’s promise of a majority will not satisfy the people, and we should therefore, urge upon His Excellency to give us responsible government. I am not in favor, however, of making that condition a sin e q u a n o n of Confederation. I w ould accept Confederation with good terms, even without responsible government There may be a few arguments against it, but there are many in its favor. Under no circumstances would I like Confederation and responsible government to go to the polls together. I hope the people will sever the two. Let us have Confederation and we shall get responsible government. Hon Mr Wood—In rising to address myself to the motion now before this Committee, I do so w ith a double object: I feel myself challenged to uphold my opinion on the subject of responsible government as applied to this colony, and I am desirous to add a few words on the bearing of the subject in ihe matter of Confederation now before the Council. 1st. With respect to the subject of responsible government, a s to this, sir, my views have been for a long time settled, and I shall endeavor to express them as clearly as I can; the resuit of them is expressed in a few words I am in favor of the extension of representative institutions little by little, to the utmost verge of safety. But I am opposed in this community at least, to the establishment of what is called responsible government. These are my views shortly. 1 believe them to be the settled convictions of most moderate and experienced men not bound to flatter popular constituencies. And 1 believe I am doing a service to society in upholding such moderate views against the popular error and the popular bias in favor of the rash application of responsible government in such communities. 1 will start, sir, at once from an historical point of view, the hon member for New Westminster has, as I understand him, asserted that responsible government is the immemorial birthright of Englishman, and that the principle of Cabinet ministers going in and out with votes of a m ajority of the House of Commons is a principle of ancient date. My understanding of the history of my country leads to a different conclusion and however much, it may be clear and obvious that representative institutions are our natur e and inalienable birthright—however much it may be established that the power of self taxation resides and has always resided in the representatives of the country, in the Commons of England, carrying with it the overwhelming power of the parse— it is, I believe clearly admitted that the principle of responsible government, as now understood, has existed for little more than 100 years, say from the accession of George I and the termination of Lord Bute’s administration, so that I admit the hon gentleman’s proposition only so far as this. Representative institutions are the birthright of the British nations representative institutions and the privilege of taxing ourselves. Now, sir. I believe the whole scope of representative institutions to be greatly misrepresented. It is the fashion for honorable members to say, that the Government of this or any other community are bound to govern according to the well understood wishes of the people; that the vox populi is the vox dei ; that ministries and Governments are responsible to the people But the true principle, as we all very well knew, is that Governments and ministries are responsible, not to the people as a populace, but to the representatives of the people, properly and reasonably chosen. Governments and ministries are responsible not to numerical majorities, but to the country. Now, sir, representative institutions are liable to this obvious and well known danger. I will quote the words of a well known political writer, Herbert Spencer. " Whenever the profit accruing to the Representative individually, from the passage of a mischievous measure largely exceeds his loss as a unit in the community from the operation of the injurious law, his interest becomes antagonistic to that of his constituents, and sooner or later will sway his vote.” How true and how obvious this is. I might go further when the private and personal, the direct and immediate interest or the representative or of the constituents, whose advocates and delegates they are, is opposed to any matter of legislative action. The direct and material interest will of a certainty prevail over the distant and more remote welfare of the community, in all but very rare instances. This is the danger that threatens all representative institutions, and the only safeguard against it is the qualification— the pecuniary and material qualification of the representive, the pecuniary and material qualifications of the elector, and accordingly we see representative institutions flourishing and successful only when this safeguard practically exists. Let us turn to the example of England. In England representative institutions and responsible Government work smoothly. And why? Because of the notoriously aristocratic and plutocratic character of the Legislature of Great Britain Political life is a sealed book to any but the wealthy classes. Every member o f Parliament is a m an of property, no other can afford the luxury of legislative life, and society is secure in the hands of representatives whose property would suffer from the results of vicious or reckless legislation. I say nothing of the question of peace and war. probably the most momentous and disastrous subject of vicious and reckless legislation, a question which will not arise in the colony T he cream of all legistion is taxation, and my solid conviction is that representative institutions and responsible Government will fail whenever the working majority is in the hands of an unsubstantial class of Representatives or of electors. I have thus, sir, treated of representative institutions and responsible Government somewhat in the abstract. I will now refer more particularly to its application to this colony, and this apart from any question of Confederation, and I will repeat that I am in favor of the extension to the utmost possible limits of the representative elements of this Council, but adverse to responsible Government. With respect to the constitution of the Legislative Council of British Columbia it might, I th:nk, hardly be necessary in the present condition of the colony, to advocate a second chamber—a Council as distinct from an assembly. However advisable this may be in an advanced condition of the colony, advanced in numbers and wealth, few, if any would advocate such an institution as a second Chamber. The elements for forming such a chamber are sadly wanting in the present state of affairs, and the matter may be dismissed without farther comment —without discussing the advisability in a general way of such an institution at all, or the constitutional elements of such a body. But with regard to the Legislature on the supposition of its consisting of one single House, it will be necessary to speak at somewhat greater length of what elements ought such a legislative body to consist? At present it consists of official members, heads of departments official members not heads of departments but representing for the most part different Magisterial districts, a few nominated members— nominated, I think it is reasonable to presume, from an impression of their being tolerably intelligent and moderate— and a few representative members. It is asked whether the constitution of this Council should be altered so as to establish direct responsible government, or what may be looked upon almost as its equivalent, a large working majority of responsible m embers. I leave out of the question at present, all reference to any modification of the constitution ot the Council in the event of Confederation, and I consider the matter at present, only in reference to the Council and the Colony in their actual condition. At present it is obvious, and must be left by all of us, by official members no less than by independent members, that our position as a Crown Colony, is what is commonly called a f a l s e p os it ion . We are individually as well fitted for seif-government as our brothers or our cousins in the Old Country or in Canada. I will go further: 1 will say that the community, taken individually in this Colony is better qualified to demand and have representative institutions. I say taken individually - and I mean it in its strict sense. Man for man, I believe the Colonist a better politicia n than his English cousin. The aristocratic class hardly exists it is true. It is an injustice to presume for a moment that the Colonist in this, or any other colony of Anglo Saxon origin is in any way unfit for the enjoyment of the fre est political liberty Higher class we have none, but the middle and lower classes are, I do not hesitate to say it, superior to the middle and lower classes at home. The colonist is more enterprising, and more pushing than the stay at home Englishman. He has better knowledge of the world and of human nature, he graduates in a school in which politics are prominent, and he is free from an immense amount of ignorance and prejudice which is thought and written and acted in the old world. But then comes the consideration, what elements are indispensable in the community to form the representative body, if as is contended, that element is to be supreme, or what is the same thing in point of actual power, when that element constitutes the working majority? I will answer, 1. Local:zed and perma8A
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Transcription | THE GOVERNMENT GAZETTE EXTRAORDINARY. 1a Friday, March 18th, 1870. The Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL—I rise to more the adoption of clause 14. These terms, or rather the terms which come back from Canada, will o f necessity come before the new electoral bod y, whose existence His Excellency has shadowed forth, and the particulars as to the division into districts must be left for the decision of that House. I t is impossible at present to specify the time. Hon. Mr . DeCOSMOS—Cannot an approximate time be named; besides there are other things upon which the country will want information. Such for instance, as whether the voting for members will be by ballot, and what is to be the qualification o f voters. I think it ought to be fixed. The Dominion law is more illiberal than that to which the people o f this country have been accustomed. I believe in the ballot, but it will be better to leave it to the constituencies. Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER—This clause has been left general, that it may be settled by the newly constituted Council. Hon. Dr HELMCKEN—I f there is a qualification for the House o f Commons it must be general for the whole Dominion. At present I believe the qualification is that existing in the Provinces before Union, ultimately there must be qualification for the whole Dominion. Hon. Dr . CARRALL- There is no general law for qualification. Hon. Mr. HUMPHREYS—The clause is indefinite and dangerous. The Dominion qualification will virtually disfranchise half the British settlers in British Columbia. We are legislating in the interests o f the people, this ought to be determined at once. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS—I believe in British subjects, having a fixed residence, and of a certain age, voting in British Columbia as it should be a residential manhood suffrage. Hon. Dr H e lm c k e n—We cannot deal with the subject now. It is impossible to divide the colony into districts until we know how many senators we are to have. Hon. Mr . HOLBROOK—Mr. Chairman, I move a recommendation to strike out the words “ i f any.” Hon. Mr WOOD—I, think the words ought to stand. The Organic Act says that senators shall be elected lor districts, but it may be desirable that senators should be appointed for the whole colony, they are nominated, and nominated because they are the best; men that the Governor can obtain. [No, no, no—Hon DeCosmos.] I believe the Executive are in the best position to know whether the principle of appointing senators is best or whether they should go for the whole colony. Hon. Mr HUMPHREYS— As this stands it. throws the whole power into the hands of the Canadians. The Lieut Governor will be a Canadian and will name Canadians, We ought to know by whom these appointments are to be made. Hon. Mr , ROBSON—It i s a great pity that these se ctional differences should be allowed to prevail, we ought to consider ourselves British Co lumbians. The Governor-General, with the consent of his Council, appoints the Lieut. -Governor; and the L ieu t -Governor, with the advioe o f his Cabinet, recommends the Senators, [No,no, Hon Dr Helmcken] Y es, it is s o ; he recommends to the Governor- General who appoints. I t is a great pity to raise these disputes about Englishmen and Canadians. Hon Mr HUMPHREYS—it is all very well to talk that w ay. I maintain that the Englishmen sitting at this table have said less as to nationality, than the Canadians. We want to be governed by British Columbians. Hon Dr HELMCKEN—We had better drop these nationalities. Hon Mr WOOD ~The Hon member for New Westminster should not be angry because we want to provide a g ainst the possibility o f ill feeling by timely precaution ‘Safe bind, safe find.’ When the Governor-General appoints Senators, i f I understand it right, he appoints the political friends o f his Cabinet. i f we are to have responsible government there will alw ays be some check, if not we may be in the position of having members selected by the Lieut-Governor without the assistance o f any responsible Cabinet. [Hear, hear, Hon DeCosmos . ] A Canadian Lieut-Governor will act with the same sort o f feeling that the English Government will. Senators will be selected by favoritism, and supporters of Confederation will doubtless be selected in this colony unless we have responsible government and representative institutions in full vigor. Canadian interests will doubtless be very prominent in this colony, and power acts injuriously on the human mind—it is one of the corrupters of the mind. Hon ATTORNE Y GENERAL—I should be sorry to s e e the words ‘ if any’ struck out; their retention leaves the matter open. Hon members seem to have forgotten that Senators must be resid ents of British Columbia. Probably they may be elected on the ground of their having an appreciation of the whole country instead of a section only. It may be that Senators will be appointed for the whole colony. Hon Mr HOLBROOK.—After hearing the explanations o f the Hon Attorney-General, I feel more desirous to press my recommendation, to show that we from the Mainland desire to have our fair share of representation, I think the w ords most objectionable. Hon Mr DeCOSMOS.—I find by the resolutions passed at the conference o f delegates in London, that Senators were to be taken from the Legislative Council. We are told by the Government that we are to go into Confederation without responsible government, then we ought to have a guarantee that the first Senators shall be representative men, and that they shall not be chosen by the Governor, and put into office for life without reference to the people. Hon Mr HUMPHREYS.—I shall move a recommendation that the first Senators shall be nominated by the Legislature. Hon Dr HELMCKEN.—The position will be worth $600. The difficulty will be to get anyone to go there. People are chary o f going into the Legislative Council now, and they will not be very anxious to go to Canada. As to choosing Senators from one place it is out of the question. And it is equally out of the question to appoint them by the Legislative Council. Hon Mr HUMPHREYS.—We are here as the agents of the people, delegates in point of fact, and we are bound to legislate in accordance with the well understood wishes of the people. In reference to having these Senators appointed, we are bound to see what they are and whether the people are likely to approve o f our acts. Hon ATTORNEY GENERAL.— Hon members must remember that these resolutions will be submitted to the people, a much abused term, as the Hon member for Victoria District has truly said, and our common object must be to make the terms acceptable to the people. They will have to pass upon them in the last resort, and to say we will or we will not have them. Hon Mr PEMBERTON.—The objection seems to me to be dividing British Columbia into districts. It is a qualification for Senators that they must reside in their districts, therefore I think it will not be desirable to divide the colony into districts. I think the clause should stand as it is. Hon Mr ROBSON— One matter deserves attention in connection with this item. I believe that the indemnity to Senators is six hundred dollars in a lump sum, without traveling expenses. I think it is now commuted, and this would place British Columbia Senators at a disadvantage with others. I t is no hardship to other Provinces, but would be most unfair upon British Columbia, traveling expenses both ways should be allowed. Hon ATTORNEY GENERAL—My conviction is that mileage is now allowed. I f I am right ten cents a mile both ways is allowed. Hon Mr BARNARD—I t is the prerogative o f the Governor; we had better vote for the repeal o f the Organic Act. Hon Mr DeCOSMOS—Under the proposed constitution Senators would be chosen by an irresponsible Governor, on the advice o f an irresponsible Minister; those who own this country do not want such a state of things to be. Hon Mr WOOD—I t is better to bear in mind that the Organic Act applies to three or at the most four Provinces : Canada East, Canada West and the Maritime Provinces, here we want exception a l terms. Hon Mr ROBSON—Hon members seem to assume that we are going to enter Confederation without responsible government. This I repudiate. I say we shall enter with privileges equal to other Provinces. I decline to assume anything e lse. With regard to the appointment of Senators by the Legislative Council, I would ask by what council? By this or b y the new House? It would not satisfy the people that a Council nominated b y the Governor should appoint, and it is yet to be seen that the new House, as shadowed forth by the Governor, would be less objectionable than this one. We are entirely in the dark. Hon Mr HUMPHREYS — As I understand it these Senators are to be appointed a fter Confederation, and consequently the recommendation refers to the new Council. His Excellency says that he will give a majority to the popular members, and l have no doubt he means what he says. I believe him to be a most estimable gentleman, but I have a feeling that he has been misled; it is not likely that in a few weeks’ travel he could understand the wants and feelings o f the people ; you must eat, drink and sleep amongst them to understand a people. I f I were a great Government contractor I would support the Government, I ask some reason of rank; it would be very easy to give us a majority o f two or three popular members, but unless we have a large majority of Representative members the Government might still get their own way. Hon Mr ROBSON — I desire, Mr. Chairman, to answer two points. I believe we shall fight for and have responsible Government. In referring to the Governor’ s speech, the Hon. member for Lillooet, says the new Council will be ju s t similar to this, that it will still be unrepresentative. I cannot see why there should be this doubt about the Constitution of the new Council I f there were to be only a majority of two or three the Council would still be unrepresentative, and the people wi ll not be contented with such a form o f Government. The argument o f the honorable member for Lillooet refutes itself in the most conclusive w ay. The people do not want an unrepresentative House, not having their confidence to elect their Senators. Hon Mr KING— What have we to do with the Organic Act? Why should we put ourselves under the iron points o f the Organic Act, and be dragged under a harrow all the days o f our lives? I f the act is wrong it must be repealed. Now is the time to express our opinion. T he CHAIRMAN put the recommendation o f Mr. Humphreys, which on division was lost, and o f Mr. Robson, which on division was lost. Clause fourteen passed as read. Hon ATTORNEY GENERAL—Sir : I rise to move the adoption o f clause fifteen, which is as follows: 15. The constitution o f the Executive authority and o f the Legislature o f British Columbia shall subject to the ‘ ‘ British North America Act, 1867,” continue as existing at the time o f union, until altered under the authority o f the said act. And before touching upon the merits o f the resolution itself I wish to explain that the time which must necessarily elapse before Confederation will allow ample opportunity to procure a change in the Constitution, and I desire to impress upon Hon members that this question o f alteration in the form of Government, is not necessarily connected with the resolution now before the House. I make these observations in consequence of observing a notice of the Hon member for Lillooet on the subject o f responsible government on the orders o f the day. On behalf o f the Government I desire to say that there is no desire whatever to shirk the full d iscussion o f the question o f responsible government. I throw the door open and invite the fullest discussion, but as the question o f the change of the constitution of this colony is one that lies between this colony and the Imperial Government, it does not form an item in these resolutions, therefore I would ask Hon members to postpone the consideration o f responsible government and pass these resolutions. On a question o f such importance a special d a y , irrespective o f these resolutions, should be set apart for discussion—there is no desire whatever on the part o f the Government to shirk the question. The matter o f the constitution is under negotiation between this colony and the Imperial Government at this moment. Supposing these resolutions are passed, other negotiations must take place. First, Canada has to accept them, then there is reference back to British Columbia to submit to the popular vote, so that there will be full time allowed for the new institutions to be inaugurated i f the people say that they do not want the terms, but that they want responsible government-, they will undoubtedly get it. I cannot conceive our going into Confederation with a Crown Council—we must expect to go in with fuller representative institutions. I f we do not have Confederation under these terms, we shall nevertheless have representative institutions and a majority under the Imperial Act will have the power to change and get responsible government, that is party government. My point is, that it is not necessary to drag in responsible government now; it is not necessary to mix it up with these resolutions. Our vote on this resolution need not be decided on responsible government, or party government. We shall still be open to send any other resolution on the subject o f party government to the Governor. I therefore throw out the invitation to discuss it more fully on a future day. I feel sure that i f this course is adopted the discussion will be more free. Hon Mr RING—I think, Sir, that his Excellency’s message, if I may so call these resolutions, invites us to discuss responsible government. Sir, we have been in former days favored with representative institutions, and have been defrauded oi them. I desire to know what we have gained b y the irresponsible government that has for some years past oppressed us. What I ask has been done about the various questions that have come up—the 2A THE GOVERNMENT GAZETTE EXTRAORDINARY. Sisters rocks, the Court o f Appeal—the answer has been, no funds. Where do the funds come from? From the people. I f the Governor heard the views of the people he might, perhaps, change his views. I ask Hon members here, who have lived under responsible government in Great Britain, (Hear, hear from Mr DeCosmos) not to be recreant to their country. Hon members on the other side say they are against responsible government and refer to a former House o f Assembly o f Vancouver Island. This is no argument. I trust that Hon members loving British institutions will be true to their country, because there are defects in some assemblys do not let us run into the abject error o f saying we are not fit for self government. We have borne this too long; do not let us hand over to Canada our consent to submit to this degradation; let us not say we are unfit; that we surrender the question o f self government. Who, I ask, has examined the people? Who has tried them and discovered whether or not they are competent to exercise the privileges o f responsible government? There are many points in this clause which demand discussion, bu t I am not going to exhaust myself. I say, however, that the question o f r e sponsible government must be considered. I throw the gauntlet down Hon Mr HUMPHREYS—Mr Chairman, as mover of the resolution on responsible government, I do not think it necessary to take u p the time o f the House. I am perfectly satisfied in my own mind that the official members are convinced that the people are in favor o f responsible government. As a student of history, young as I am, I begin to realize this truth; that all liberty and improvement has been infused into communities by the shock o f revolution, or violent agitation. There is no hope o f political improvement in time of tranquility and without agitation. The official members of this council are remarkable for their profound indifference t o right and wrong. I t is in their interest to postpone the settlement o f this question o f responsible government. I hold that there is a great necessity lor this resolution; the question ought to be settled now and forever. Why should we be compelled, year after year, to fight these battles for reform over and ever again; let this question be settled so that we may have leisure for other things. How gentlemen say the people are not in favor o f responsible government; time will show. I say that they will almost as a unit insist upon it, a nd I lay down this proposition—no responsible government, no Confederation; no Confederation, no pensions. Instead of tightening the governmental reins they should be slackened. If responsible government is not granted these officials will still lose their power; for then in all probability a mightier nation than Canada will take charge o f us. I am in favor o f Confederation if it gives us permanent advantages not otherwise. We must have a free constitution. My conscience tells me that my votes on these resolutions a re not prompted by selfish motive s ; i f the people get responsible government I am satisfied. His Excellency admits that he would not like to extend the liberal form o f government to this colony. My opinion is that there is no community unfit to govern themselves; government is not a complicated machine; there is very little difference between carrying on a government and carrying on a business. One-half o f the depression in this colony is in my opinion attributable to the despotic form of government. Just fancy the head of a mercantile house allowing his c lerk s to carry on the whole business of the firm a s th ey pleased. (Hear, hear from Mr DeCosmos). Without responsible government you will lose Confederation; it is not necessary to say anymore; let us have something like the government o f Ontario. T h o s e whom I have the honor to represent sent me here to advocate responsible government. I will read fr on a petition now in my hands. Hon Attor ney- General—This is out o f order; I rise to call the Hon member to order; this is not the t ime to present a petition. Hon Mr DeCosmos—The Hon member has a right to read from it. Chairman—The Hon member cannot read from a petition which has n o t been presented to and received by this House. Hon Mr. Robson— Mr. Chairman, I request that you will be careful in ruling on this matter. Hon members have the right to read from documents to show the views o f their constituents. I t is alluded to as the b est m eans o f acquainting t he House with the views of the constituency which the Hon member represents. Hon Attorney-General—On the other hand I would say that the r ight o f petitioners must be respected, and i f Hon members are allowed to read petitions, then petitions can be g ot in by a side wind Hon Mr Robson—In my opinion the Hon member has a right to real from a document o f this kind. Hon Dr Hel mcken—Saving looked at this document I see i t is not a petition to this House and may therefore be quoted. The Chairman having looked at the document decided that it might be quoted. Hon Mr Humphreys then read a port;on of the prayer o f the petition, which purported to be to Her Majesty the Queen: Hon Mr . Robson—Tne honorable and learned Attorney General has appealed to those honorable members who are in favor of responsible Government to postpone the question for the present. I should be glad to accede to the request i f the honorable and learned gentleman will meet the objections that present themselves to my mind as to that course In my opinion to vote for this section now will preclude the possibility o f our bringing on the subject o f responsible Government in the House this session. We shall be met with the assertion that it has been already discussed and decided for this session. I am quite sure the honorable and learned Attorney General does not wish to catch us in a trap. Hon Attorney General—Certainly n ot. As h on o ra b le m em bers have insisted upon opening the question, I n ow propose to g o on w ith the discussion. Hon Mr Robson—I am most anxious to meet the views o f the Government in this matter, if possible, but as we are asked to vote aye or no upon this clause, I say that in voting for it we shall be casting our votes in direct opposition to Responsible Government. Hon A t t o r ney G en e r a l—The discussion must go on now ; you have begun it is too late to withdraw ; the lists are closed, and the gang of battle down. Mr Robson—Mr. Chairman, I will address myself to the question before the House, which I feel to be the most important clause in these terms ; a question, in fact, which underlies the peace, prosperity and happiness o f British Columbia; a question which, if carelessly or improperly treated now, may eventuate in the most serious consequences to the Colony : for I believe the people are as ready now as in earlier days to fight for freedom, and to shed their blood in defense o f their political rights. I t becomes us, then, to be candid with ourselves and with each other, very serious, firm and dispassionate in discussing this clause, as it might result in most disastrous consequences. As I read the clause it places it beyond the power o f the Colonists to obtain the form o f Government which they, as I believe, really want, and i f we pass it we shall obtain no more than that slightly more liberal form, which is foreshadowed in his Excellency’s speech, under the cover o f representative Government. Profoundly impressed as I am, with the gravity o f the subject we are now called upon to consider, any remarks I may be enabled to offer will proceed rather from a sense o f duty to my constituents and to m y country than from any hope o f changing the views or influencing the vote o f any honorable member. What is responsible Government? I have been led to believe that considerable confusion o f Ideas exists upon this p o int; and I was the more impressed with this upon listening to the remarks of the honorable member for Caraboo, a few days ago. That honorable gentleman compared the introduction of responsible Government into this colony to applying the machinery o f the Great Eastern to a dairy churn. Now, sir, responsible Government is not a quantity ; it is a principle; and as such it is applicable to the Great Eastern or to a dairy churn, capable of being applied to a tiny lady’s watch. I t is a principle admirably adapted to the largest communities in the Old World. It is a principle admirably adapted to the smallest communities in the New World. It is a principle that may be worked out in a cabinet o f a hundred. I t is a principle which may be successfully worked out in a cabinet o f three. Without it no Government can, in the true sense, be called a peoples' Government. All true Governments derive their power from the people. All true Governments must be responsible to the people. Responsible Government is, then, a principle which may be adapted to, and successfully worked out in this community, i f this proposition is incontrovertible, which I maintain it is, who can say that British Columbia is not large enough for responsible Government, There are men here o f ability to form a cabinet The Cabinet o f the day is, under the responsible system, the Government. Just so long as it has the confidence of a majority of the representatives o f the people in the House. In the event o f that confidence being lost, one o f two courses is open. The Ministers place their resignation in the hands o f the Governor, who commonly calls upon a prominent member of the opposition to form a Ministry: or it they believe that the House does not truly represent the people upon the question at issue, they advise a dissolution and an appeal to the country. What would responsible Government have to do here? In dealing with this question I , o f course, assume British Columbia to be a province o f the dominion; and I confess, that were o t h e r wise, were it proposed to remain a separate colony the case would be different . I do not say that even then I would not advocate the introduction of responsible Government, but that advocacy might be less hearty and less firm. Regarding British Columbia as a province o f the dominion, the chief objections are removed by the removal to Ottawa o f all those larger and mere complex questions o f legislation which might threaten to crack the brain o f our embroyo statesmen The local Government would alone have to deal with local questions, and thus it would h ave very simple duties to discharge, scarcely more difficult, in fact, than those falling within the functions o f a large manic parity in Canada. Are the people in British Columbia fit for it ? And here I would express my sincere regret that the representative o f her Majesty in this colony has felt it to be his duty to pronounce an adverse opinion. I will yield to no one, either in this House or out o f it, in entertaining a high respect for his Excellency, for his talent, experience, and honesty o f purpose. But I do say, and I say it with respect, more in sorrow than in anger, that I cannot think his knowledge of the people o f this colony was such as to justify him in so early pronouncing upon their fitness for self-government. Attorney General—The houorable member for New Westminster will, I am sure, pardon the interruption, but I feel it my duty to deny that the Governor ever said, or that any member o f the Government has said or thought that the people o f British Colombia are unfit for self government. Mr Robson—I thank the honorable and learned Attorney General, and I appreciate his motives. There is no one less disposed than myself to speak or write one word calculated to weaken the hands o f the Government, or cause the well-deserved popularity o f his Excellency to wane; but yet I cannot conceal from myself the fact that a mere play upon words will not mend matters. Whether it is the colony or its inhabitants that has been pronounced unfit for self-government, the practical results remain the same, and it is with these we alone are concerned. From my own knowledge o f the people, and it is the result o f eleven years’ contact with them, I h ave no hesitation in saying they are pre-eminently fitted for self government. There are scores o f men in the country with callused palms and patched garments well fitted by natural end owments, education and practical experience in the working o f responsible Government in other colonies, to occupy seats either in the Legislative Assembly or in the Cabinet of Br itish Columbia. He who would judge o f the intelligence and mental acquirements o f men in this colony by outward appearance and by present occupation certainly would not judge righteous judgment. The opinion of his Excellency the Governor to the contrary, notwithstanding, I boldly assert that the people o f British Columbia are fit for responsible Government. Do they want it? Doubtless there are those in this House, possibly even in the unofficial ranks, who will deny that the people of British Columbia really desire to have responsible Government under confederation. I t is sometimes difficult to account for divergence of opinion; but I venture to think that I have the weight o f both argument and evidence on my side when I assert, as I do, that the great body o f the people, certainly an overwhelming majority, do earnestly and intelligently desire that form o f government. It is difficult to believe that any man who has given due thought to the subject can possibly hesitate. Look at the position this colony would occupy under Confederation, without the full control o f its own local affairs—a condition alone attainable by means o f responsible government. While the other Provinces only surrender Federal questions to the central government, we would s urrender all. While the other Provinces with which it is proposed to confederate upon equal and equitable terms retain the fullest power to manage all provincial matters, British Columbia would surrender that power —her local as well as her national affairs would virtually be managed at Ottawa. Could a union so unequal be a happy and enduring one ? The compact we are about to form is for life. Shall we take into it the germ o f discord and disruption ? The people desire change ; but they have no desire to exchange the Imperial heel for the Canadian heel. They desire political manumission. I stand here, and, in the name of my ancestors, protest before Heaven against the surrender o f constitutional rights purchased by the best blood o f our race—a priceless legacy we have no right to barter away, even if we would. We owe it to our ancestors to preserve entire those rights which they have delivered to our care. We owe it to posterity not to suffer their dearest inheritance to be destroyed. But, i f it were possible for us to be insensible o f these sacred claims, there is yet an obligation binding upon ourselves, from which nothing can acquit u s ; a personal interest which we THE GOVERNMENT GAZETTE EXTRAORDINARY. 3a cannot surrender. To alienate even our own rights would be a crime as much more enormous than suicide, as a life of civil security and political freedom is superior to a condition o f serfdom ; a n d if life be the bounty o f Heaven, we scornfully reject the noblest part o f the gift i f we consent to surrender that certain rule of living and those constitutional rights, without which the condition of human nature is not only miserable but contemptible. I know but too well that the people of this colony have, during these years past, been unjustly and unconstitutionally deprived o f their rights ; but the perpetration of a wrong in the past can constitute no argument for perpetuating that wrong in the future ; and it would appear a most fitting moment, when a new constitution is about to be offered,, to demand the full restoration o f political rights of which we have been for some time so unjustly deprived. A word about the constitution which the Governor proposes to confer .upon this colony. Regarding it in the dim light shed upon it by the Executive, it is not unfair to assume that there will be one more popular member taken into the Executive, and that the people will have a majority of two in the Legislature. Let us suppose that the Legislative Council has 20 members, 11 elected by the. people and 9 appointed by the Governor. Three are taken from the 11 into the mysterious chamber of the Executive, where they become—I will not say corrupted—manipulated, educated to see things somewhat differently from what they saw them before. In a House so constituted, is it unfair, is it uncharitable to conclude that, on all government measures at least, the government would command a majority? Take 3 from 11 and 8 remain. Take 8 from 20 and how many remain to the government? Is it not 12? Where, then, is the people’s majority under the proposed constitution ? And yet I am constantly told that this is not the proper time to ask for responsible government—that i f the people want it they will p ossess, under the new constitution, the ready means of obtaining it. Sir, I do not see the matter in that light, I see in the proposed constitution a condition o f things which promises a five years', possibly a ten years’ agitation for what the people are prepared for now, desire now, are entitled to now All governments are naturally conservative. All persons holding positions o f honor, power or emolument are conservative. Think you those holding off i c e by appointment will favor or promote a change which would make them responsible to the people—exchange their commission from the Crown for the more brittle tenure o f public opinion’? On the contrary, we should find those in power opposed to the people in their struggle for responsible government; and how long the struggle might last it would be idle to predict. Besides, the people o f Canada do not desire to see British Columbia occupying any such false position. They know too well the value o f free institutions, and their adaptation to new countries to think of withholding them from us. These institutions were not won without a long and bloody struggle, even in Canada; and the prosperity and contentment o f that people date from the inauguration of responsible government. The failure o f representative institutions formerly enjoyed upon this island, is frequently cited as an argument against responsible government being introduced here. I admit the partial failure of these institutions. That failure w a s n ’t , how ever , on account o f the institutions being ‘representative’ , but because they were not ‘ responsible.’ The essential principle w as w anting There was no constitutional connecting link—no bond o f sympathy between those who sat by the will o f the people and those who sat contrary to, and in defiance of, that will. The system, painted, though it was, in popular dress, was rotten at the core—proved a delusion and a sham. The people, sometimes in indifference and contempt, permitted unsuitable men to be elected, and the whole thing came t o rack and ruin. I t is to avoid a repetition o f that unseemly farce that the people demand that any new constitution which may be conferred upon this colony shall be based upon the only true principle of responsibility. This question should be finally settled. The colony desires political rest. To inaugurate a fresh political agitation with union is most undesirable and might lead to disastrous results. The possible consequences of a refusal to grant responsible government coincident with Confederation is a part o f the subject I almost hesitate to touch I would neither prophecy, predict nor threaten ; but I would ask the government to head well and carefully the lessons written in blood in other countries. Human nature is much the same on both sides o f this great continent. Has the Anglo-Saxon race become so utterly degenerate here that it is prepared to barter away for mere money subsidies those rights which were purchased with so much blood elsewhere? I utterly refuse to think so meanly of this people We have seen that even the hall-breeds at Red River have too much of the of 1 blood in their veins to permit a fancied political wrong. I am not going to predict a rebellion here. Heaven grant there may be none But I do feel it my duty to warn the government against unnecessarily provoking such a possible contingency. Why should there be such an unaccountable antipathy to investing the people of British Columbia with those political powers enjoyed under the British Constitution ? Why is the present form o f government so unpopular with the people ? I will tell you why. It is just because it is not a people’s government. They had no hand in making it. They have none in working it. They can have none in unmaking it. Only let the people have a hand in forming the Government, in selecting men of their own choice to rule over them, and we would find a popular government, a strong government, strong in the heart and confidence o f the people. The very same gentlemen who are unpopular now, because ruling without the consent o f the people would be popular then, because ruling by the act and with the consent o f the people. The people o f British Columbia are naturally a conservative people Restore to them their political rights, and no Government would need to fear an undue desire for change. The people know best how to manage their own local affairs. Depend upon it; sir, the people are seldom wrong in their opinions; in their sentiments they are never mistaken. Those now in power hare a great responsibility resting upon them. Upon the manner in which they acquit themselves in regard to this very question may hang the most momentous consequences. Will they promote everlasting wellbeing? or precipitate untold evil? Heaven grant that they may do right! I stand here to day to advise and warn , not to threaten and predict. The Government has a very g rave responsibility in this matter, and may well take j a lesson from other countries. The possible consequence o f a refusal to grant a reasonable request may be a repetition o f the Red River trouble. Let not the government make a fatal mistake, or they may f ind themselves in a state o f political agitation that may lead to the most serious consequences. I believe that, under circumstances analogous to what occurred in the Red River Territory, the Imperial Government would treat the inhabitants of this colony with even more consideration. I t would not be a question of bayonets and fleets to coerce this colony; but it would be a question o f what concessions ought to be made. I say that the Government have an opportunity now not only o f s hunning evil but o f doing a great work. Oh ! let not the Government make the fatal mistake o f saying the people shall not manage their own affairs. Do not let t hem make the fatal mistake o f compelling the people to reject these conditions at the polls. Now I have discharged a duty; I have said all I feel called upon to say at this stage. I have stated my own views and, I venture to think, those of an overwhelming majority o f the people o f British Columbia as well as o f my own constituents. I trust the Government will take care how they force a vote on this question which affects this whole community (Hear, hear). This is , in a sense, distinct from the conditions, and it is probable that the Governor must obtain what we are now asking from a different quarter. But, obtain it from where he will, it must, I say, be obtained. I beg to move the following amendment, as meeting the case more fully than the resolution offered by the Hon member for Lillooet. Whereas no union can be either acceptable or satisfactory which does not confer upon the people o f British Columbia as full control over their own local affairs as is enjoyed in the other Provinces with which it is proposed to confederate, therefore, be it Resolved. That an humble address be presented to His Excellency the Governor, earnestly recommending that a Constitution based upon the principle o f Responsible Government as existing in the Province o f Ontario, may be conferred upon this colony, coincident with its admission into the Dominion o f Canada. Hon Attorney General.—Allow me to observe on this, that the Hon member is asking the Government to grant what it has no power to give. Hon Mr Robson—The Governor has promised to seek the power to grant us a new constitution. We only ask that in that new constitution we may have responsible government. Hon Mr DeCosmos,—Mr Chairman, I do not intend to occupy the House for many minutes. I agree with the Hon member for Lillooet and I disagree with the Hon member for New Westminster. I think, sir, that we ought to have representative institutions and responsible government irrespective o f Confederation The Hon member for New Westminster’s proposition unites it with Confederation. I think this is a mistake, but it is o f no matter so long as we get it. I look upon British Columbia as a municipality under the British Crown, Under Canada it will be a municipality with less power. Anyone who knows anything o f municipal law knows that it is based upon three principles: Territory, authority and responsibility. This colony has the first two, and we are now asking for the third, and the terms sent down to the Council do not contain the elements of responsibility o f the Executive to the people. Everything is tending to this point Without responsibility, no matter bow elective the new Council is, it will be a failure. The people want responsible government and representative institutions under any circumstances. I think the people would be traitors to themselves i f they accepted any form o f g o v ernment which had not the element o f responsibility. I would rebel i f there were enough like me in the colony, and arrest every member o f the Government that I thought was robbing me o f my rights. I would go to a further extreme. However, I shall not trouble the House with a long speech on this matter, as I consider it o f little use. This question ended, I am contented to leave this Council and go to my constituents. Hon Dr Carrall.—Mr Chairman, I should like to ask what all this breeze is about? I t is perfectly clear to all that as soon as we enter the Confederacy the people o f this country can have any form of government they desire, I refuse to take up the issue without Confederation, in a state o f isolation. We are dealing with Confederation. I am, equally with the Hon member for New Westminster, aware og the priceless boon o f responsibility, which exists in England, which may fairly be called the Standard-Bearer o f nations and I aam equally aware that the same responsibility does not exist in the United States. During the late war I was in the United States’ army, Stanton, the then Secretary o f War, was a most unpopular man. They wanted to get rid o f him, but he could not be removed. When I took the ground that responsible government was not expedient, it was not because I did not approve of the system. It is, I say, the wisest and best form o f government, but it is too cumbrous for this colony. I will repeat my objections; The Council contains no men of influence, the constituencies are too remote, and the inhabi tants are all engaged in bread-seeking ; there are few men of independent means who would take part in responsible government, and consequently the direction of public affairs would fall into the hands of men who are not fitted or qualified to govern the country, o r otherwise into the hands o f Victorians; neither o f which I , for one, wish to see. How unfortunate it would be for Caribooites i f the Hon senior member for Victoria (Dr Helmcken) were elected for Cariboo, I say, then. that it must fall into bad hands, or into the hands o f Victorians. I offer that argument as a British Columbian. The Executive Council do not care one fig what sort o f government the people take. The Executive say the question is one for the people to decide. We have a measure o f responsibility now. The Hon member for New Westminster says that His Excellency will do certain things. I take his speech as it reads, and I have no doubt that a majority of the people’s representatives will sit round the board, none know how great the majority will be. (Attorney General— Hear,hear.) Responsible government has never been made a distinct issue throughout the colony. [It has, Mr DeCosmos.] The Hon member says that it has ; I say it has not. It has been named with Confederation but not by it s e l f ; and until it is made a separate question my advice to the Governor will be not to grant it. The Governor has left you to choose any government you deem best. Do you think it would be better to have as permanent heads o f departments two or three gentlemen who are familiar with the wants o f the colony, or a moveable ministry going out on a question o f repairs to Cowichan road, or something of that kind. These are amongst the things that you have to consider, and if, after due consideration, the people desire responsible government they will have it . I am here to state that his Excellency the Governor has no wish or desire to keep back responsible government, if he had any such desire is it likely that he would have reconstituted his Executive Counc il so as to make it elective? I apprehend that people do not consider what they are talking about when they ask for responsible government; they have not probably considered the failures that have been made in respect of responsible government; there have been some failures, as, for instance, in Jamaica and in Victoria. A class o f people get into power under responsible government whom no person would like to have as rulers. There are petty interests mixed up with politics in small communities which prevent the system working so well in them, as in large countries like Great Britain, where there is a healthy tone, and a vast population and consequently great questions o f national importance. I maintain that after Confederation the questions connected with local affairs will be so small and so entirely connec ted with particular localities that a staff o f permanent heads o f department will be far better for the colony than responsible THE GOVERNMENT GAZETTE EXTRAORDINARY. government. I make this statement from conviction. I am perfectly free to take any course I like, notwithstanding I am an Executive Councillor. My position has not in any way curtailed my views. I could have advised responsible government i f I had thought proper, and would have done so if I had thought it desirable for this colony. I f anyone believes that the Organic Act does not allow responsible government to be obtained at any time let him move to make clause 19 specially applicable to this co lony. Hon Dr Helmcken—It is in the terms already, only it is not specially named. Hon Dr Carrall—Well, name it specially and put it in ; I will support it i f anyone proposes it We know what His Excellency’s intention is with regard to giving representation in the new Council, but we do not know the measure of it . I f there is an overwhelming majority for responsible government in all districts, electors will take care to send responsible government members to the next Council, i f the people are determined to have this p r ic e less boon, let them send men who will say they will have it. I feel impelled to administer a soft and gentle rebuke to the Hon member for New Westminster, who has, I must confess, won my esteem by his mainly, straightforward support of these resolutions; but I must take exception to his language, it has been too emphatic—unintentionally o f course—because led away by the subject. He has used inflammatory language which be had better not have uttered, language which was not exactly in accordance with what I conceive to be correct. That clause in the Governor’s speech which speaks o f our not being fit to govern ourselves. Governor Musgrave has never said so; i f he had I should have taken it as a personal insult. I say, as a British Columbian, I am capable o f governing myself, and it we can individually govern ourselves it is fair to suppose that the colony, as a whole, can govern itself. I f you had the whole population comeatable altogether, so that they could be parallel like an army, and you could make them give expression to their views, and out o f that get a government, it might be practicable; but instead o f that, here we are with a scattered population, isolated centres separated from each other; the majority are here for the sole purpose of making money, and they don’ t feel that anxiety that has been represented about responsible government; they want to be governed as cheaply as possible I f I am wrong, if it turns out at the polls that even a trifling majority are in favor of responsible government, they can h ave it. The iron heel o f Canada is all nonsense. Governor Musgrave is the man we have to deal with, and I say that responsible government is a relief to any Governor, for it comes between him and the people Governor Musgrave says that it is his (I paraphase) my duty with my experience to give fair and frank advice to the people ; to tell them what I think is for their good. I f they determine differently to my advice the fault is with them. Supposing that Governor Musgrave had put responsible Government in as a condition, and had thrust it upon the people, would not the respectable minority who are against it have said, or possibly, and as I think probably have said, His Excellency had acted unwisely. This question has been before the people ; they would have been justified in jumping at the gilded bait o f responsible Government i f the Governor had not proposed a new system; but as he has done so the people will do well to consider before they swallow the barbed hook that lies under the bait. I desire to disclaim speaking in the interest o f officials their position would, so far as I believe, not be injured in any way by the introduction o f responsible Government. Those among them who were commissioned in England (I mean the heads o f Departments) will be rendered so independent that they will be above fighting after their own interests. I think it unlikely that they will remain here. As to the balance o f officials, if Canada is as liberal now as of old, or as liberal as Australia, they will be well provided for whether we have responsible Government or not. Probably they will be “ utilized," since that is the term we are to use. I claim for the system which His Excellency has foreshadowed, that this more suitable to the present circumstances o f this colony than any other system which can be given us Responsible Government has acted well in large communities, but in small ones I doubt its efficiency. It is like a painted ship on a painted ocean. If it were obtained in a small colony like this, there would be a constant game o f battledore and shuttle cock going on—in to-day, out to-morrow. Fancy the honorable member for Victoria City presiding at the Lands and Works Department one day, and I, having paid him all the compliments I could, come over another day to have an interview with the Chief and find that there has been a change of Ministry, there is another man in. My ideas may be wrong, it so, they can be corrected at the polls. If I were a man of property, with a large stake in the colony, I should decidedly object to responsible Government. I have given my opinion candidly and honestly. I may never sit at this Council Board again. I have given my advice to his Excellency, to this Board, and to my constituents conscientiously. I f I am wrong the people will correct me. I speak from conviction. No doubt there is talent in British Columbia: no doubt there is plenty of administrative ability ; there are many better men than myself, I am very sure, and that is one reason that I oppose responsible Government. (Laughter.) But the main difficulty is that the best men won’ t come here ; the shaft is blown here, the wheat remains behind. On motion of Hon. Mr. Drake the debate was adjourned to Monday. Monday, March 21st, 1870. Hon Mr Ring rose to resume the debate, and said: Mr Chairman, I feel assured that the House will accord me leave to say a few words. There have been submitted for the consideration o f this House two amendments, and in the observations of the movers two points of argument have been adduced, the first founded on supposed reasoning, and the second in the way o f threats and military argument, grounded on the possibility o f the government refusing to insert this condition. I desire to disengage myself from this latter argument. When I hear anything tantamount to a threat from the people against the Executive I desire to repudiate it. Hon members who put such a picture of warfare before us talk bunkum. I address my humble petition to His Excellency, but if his judgment is against us, I say to him stand to your point and do not give way to threats; listen to no arguments as to what may happen in the nature ol threats; stand to your points. I say to Executive members, don’ t yield to threats, don’t be moved by them. I support the principle o f responsible government, but I do so constitutionally. I say to Executive members, I trust you will yield to reason and argument but not to threats. I say we can ask for responsible government without the leave of the Organic Act; but I say let us repudiate ail connection with Canada until we have secured responsible government; let us not wait till we are surrounded by Canadians. With regard to the railway, I say that in the life o f the youngest amongst us we shall not get it; but we must make this the main, resolution, without responsible government let us have no Confederation. Better bear the ills we have than fly to others that we know not o f Let as not run the risk of having to ask Canada for responsible government. Make it the emphatic s in e qua non that we must have responsible government or no Confederation. Hon Mr H umphreys—Out o f deference to the amendment offered b y the Hon member for New Westminster, (Mr Robson,) I ask the leave of the House to withdraw my motion so that the amendment, the latter part o f which I like better than my own, may stand. Hon A t to rn e y General—I regret very much that a discussion so inapposite, so totally unnecessary, should have been forced on by the other side o f the House at a time so inopportune. I am glad that the Hon member for Lillooet has withdrawn his motion ; it leaves the Council to deal with the amendment o f the hon member for New Westminster, and I deeply regret that the hon gentleman did not accept the invitation to give up a special field-day to the discussion of responsible Government, as suggested by myself after we bad passed clause 15 of the Terms This I stated at the time the House was quite competent to do. Then members on this side of the House might have freely joined in the discussion, perhaps some might have supported the principle, but n o ! The hon proposer o f the amendment, with the light of battle in his eye, had refused every suggestion; and afterwards, when he began to find out his mistake, it was too late, there was nothing for it but to go on. The melee had begun ; the glove is down ; the visors are closed, and the lists barred I t cannot be put off. If the hon member for New Westminster had been opposed to responsible government he could not have devised a coarse more adapted than mixing up the question with terms, for shelving responsible government for the session. The point which requires special notice and correction is that nearly all speakers during the debate seem to think that the Governor alone could grant any alteration of Constitution t hat may be required, merely for the asking, but this is a mistake; he cannot The Constitution can only be changed by the same power that created it—the Imperial Parliament and the Queen i n Council. The Governor can only recommend. I t is for the Home Government to say what that change shall be. As to the able speech of the hon member for New Westminster, the eloquence of which I was forced to applaud in spite o f myself, it was an argument based upon fallacious premises throughout, asserting that we should only have a representative majority o f one, which could only leal to a false conclusion, and I take it that the hon member is in favor o f responsible government as a sine qua n on , else why all this tall talking of blood, wading knee deep in blood, why this encouragement of rebellion, in defence of our rights and the l ik e , and yet I understood the hon member for New Westminster to pay that he does not make responsible government a sine qua non f or Confederation. Hon Mr Robson—I said nothing of the kind. I do not choose to state whether or not I would make it a sine qua non. Hon A ttorney General—I have an accurate recollection, and have a note o f it, and I ask, the hon member to state whether he will make it a sine qua non. Hon Chief Commissiones—I understood the hon member for New Westminster to say that Confederation would not be satisfactory to the colony without responsible government, but that he would not pledge himself to make it a sine qua non. Hon Mr Robson—I said further that I did not pledge myself that the people would not. Hon Attorney General—I then understand that the honorable member for New Westminster puts it not as a sine qua non. Hon Mr R obson—No, Mr. Chairman, I never said that. I will not be placed in such a position. I refuse to have such an issue forced upon us. Attorney General—Either the honorable member puts it one way or the other; one of two opposites must be true. I can quite understand, and must prefer the direct and simple issue o f the honorable member for Victoria District, for immediate responsible Government in any case, either with or without confederation. I say, sir, that the question is in no way connected with the discussion o f this clause. I said that responsible Government ought not to be considered until after the Council is reconstituted with an increased representation, as shadowed forth in his Excellency’s speech. I have said that we shall have the sole control o f the matter in our own hands i f we have confederation. I say we, because I identify myself with this country. I speak on this matter as a citizen. I say that i f we have confederation we shall have an opportunity of getting responsible Government. I f we have not Confederation then we shall have increased representation, and under that we can get responsible Government if the country as a unit goes for it. Honorable members are complicating this question. I cannot imagine that it was the intention o f the honorable member for New Westminster to complicate the question. I have too much respect for him to allow myself to suppose so, it is impossible, and that he wished to force a negative, is equally impossible. It is an error of judgment in my opinion. I f it had been left to the Council separately it would have left honorable members more at liberty to consider the question freely. I was, in common with other members carried away in admiration o f the outburst of oratory o f the honorable member. But there was an allusion—a warning. It is said that it was not a threat; but there was talk o f shouldering muskets, and of blood and bloodshed, as if that was the proper way to get civil rights. I protest against these threats, these turgid speeches which oppress the ears o f those who wish to listen to argument and reason. As to the opposition o f the Government members it arises from no dislike to the system on the part of the head o f the Executive. Responsible Government interposes a barrier between the people and the Governor, which is most useful to the Governor. I say that we are not in a position to take advantage of responsible Government. I f the country thinks it necessary or desirable what is there to prevent our getting it when we choose to ask for it. The honorable member for New Westminster himself told us that the Imperial Government were always ready to step in, and yet he hints at violence and disturbance. When the honorable Chief Commissioner of Lands and Works proposed a resolution last session, which was seconded by myself, with respect to a change in the Constitution, asking for a Council with a majority o f one o f representative members, honorable members said w e don’ t want the change, and voted i t down. I f we had secured this we should have been a step further in advance than we are in constitutional progress. I say we must hesitate before any body constituted as this Council is, can pass resolutions o f such a nature. Any such resolutions ought to express the full and deliberate opinions o f the country. As to the special merits of responsible Government itself, it is hardly necessary to argue it here at such an inopportune time. I shall therefore merely 4a THE GOVERNMENT GAZETTE EXTRAORDINARY. 5A say that I think it totally inapplicable at present to the circumstances of British Columbia, where population is so sparse, and lies at the circumference of a circle which contains an area of 300,000 square miles, and where representation is so difficult that the form suggested would be the most expensive that could be adopted, and instead of preventing agitation will be likely to increase it. Much of the population is alien, and in any case this Council is not the proper body to pass u p o n it . If, however, the country is of a different opinion they can say so at the polls, and there is no power can prevent their getting responsible Government. But I would ask what makes the system so particularly attractive to honorable members who advocate it? We are told that it is solely, because it will be good for the colony, but there is no attempt to prove the proposition that has been set up. Another thing strikes m e as coming with a very bad grace from those who support this recommendation. It presupposed a distrust of Canada, and assumes that men of the large experience of Canadian Statesmen, and so reliable as they are, are not to be trusted to yield to a general cry from the country for enlarged representative institutions. I don’t think that this Is the time to go into the question. I say. then, that whenever responsible Government is wanted it can be had. I need hardly refer to the position of official members in this matter. The terms already passed by the House so far as this question is in any way connected with Confederation, leave the officials free to express their opinions. I must, myself, Vote against this recommendation, and I press upon the honorable members to do the same in order to prevent the complication of the terms with any such irrelevant question. Hon Chief Commissioner—I must endeavor in as few words as possible to state the position ef the Government members upon the subject now before the House. 1 fully understand that it was imperative upon some hon members to bring forward this question of responsibility at some period of the present session, having advocated it by speech and pen as the specific remedy for the ills that the colony was laboring under. Consistency demanded that the question should be brought up by them for discussion; it was a iogicai necessity. Inexorable state , I say, impelled certain hon members to advocate responsible government. I h a d , however, hoped that the hon members who advocated it would have reserved it for separate consideration, instead of bringing It up as an amendment to this clause now under consideration (Mr Robson - no, not an amendment) Virtually it is an amendment. If this clause had prescribed that any future alteration in the constitution should have been d e p endent on Canada, then I could see the desirability of hon members on the other side of the House taking exception to it; but as it is I confess I am at a loss to comprehend their position. Although, as I said, inexorable fate compelled hon members to bring the subject forward, it is a mistake to bring it up in a Council constituted as this is, especially when the Governor h as so distinctly expressed his view in opposition to the inauguration of responsible government at the present time. It would surely have been much more to the advantage of the cause they advocate for hon members to have postponed the consideration of the question for the more representative House shadowed forth in His Excellency's speech. I say shadowed forth, for on reflection it must be plain to all hon members that His Excellency was not in a position to tell what the constitution of that House will be. He does not know. He has recommended certain changes for Imperial sanction; they may or may not be favorably considered. His Excellancy does, however, tell you that the representative element will be larger, and i think, therefore, that it would have been wiser on the part of the representative members who advocate responsible government to have left it to the next Council instead of bringing it forward while the present resolutions are under discussion. The subject, if not positively irrelevant, is not counseled with this resolution, which simply provides, as a matter of term, power to change the constitution, in accordance with the Organic Act, when the people desire it. In common with the hon Attorney General, I am surprised that hon members who cordially support Confederation should be afraid to trust the Dominion Government upon the question. I a m surprised at the inconsistency of those who tell you that the people could not get responsible government under Confederation, and that the wishes of the people would not be allowed to prevail. 1 am surpr ised particularly at the hon member of New Westminster expressing any doubt upon this subject I, as an individual member of this community, would willingly leave the interest of the colony to the guardianship of the Canadian Government. If I did not think that that Government would exercise whatever power it might nave for the benefit of the people, instead of, as suggested by hon members, for its own argrandisement, I would have no Confe deration. If under Confederation there would be no chance of responsible government, how can the hon member expect to get it from a Council constituted as this is? However, as the subject has been brought forward for discussion, it behoves us to consider it upon its merits, These were two propositions before the House. The hon member for Lilloeet has withdrawn his, which was in reality but a vague expression of an abstract opinion in favor of responsible government, a recommendation in general terms. We have now to confine our attentions to the amendment of the hon member for New Westminster, the preamble of which states that Confederation will not be satisfactory to the people without responsible government. The resolution itself although embodying the same principle as the one which has been withdrawn, contemplates a practical step towards obtaining the subject recommended, by addressing the Governor. The hon member for New Westminster was careful to reserve his own opinion, but he was very positive that Confederation without responsible government would not be acceptable to the people. Coming now to the subject and matter of the speeches of the two hon members, I find that the arguments of the hon member for Lillooet, are simply invoctives, his entire logic is abuse of the Government and the persons composing it. I have always understood that assertion is not fact, and that invective is not argument. It may be that my inability to appreciate the force of his remarks arises from my not possessing the qualification which he told us was essential to a proper understanding of the people and the people's affair. It may be that I have not 'eaten and drunk and slept with the people,' and cannot, therefore, rightly estimate the strength of the demonstration which general and indiscriminate abise pf government officials may convey to some minds. As to the hon member's earnestness and belief in his care, his conscientiousness in the discharge of his duty to his constituents and to the colony, had we ever had any doubt of it, his positive and repeated assurances of the honesty of his intentions in this matter, of his unfaltering determination to do his duty to upon he prpresents, must have forced convictions upon us, that, which giving him full credit for singleness of purposes, I must take leave to remark on his singular mode of recommending the subject to the favorable consideration of this Council, since his argument in its favor is to heap general accusation and vitaperation on the official members of thus Council whom he invites to form with him by voting in favor of his views, to confirm his view of their utter baseness and worthlessness. 1 shall not place myself in opposition to such a line of argument. But, sir, the argument of the hon member for New Westminster is of a very different character. I congratulate him and I congratulate the House on the manner in which the matter was treated by him. and especially as regards the officials. I acknowledge the courteous manner in which he touched on these points in his arguments which affected the members at this end of the table. I t is inseparable from the discussion of this question in this House that it must to some extent partaka of a personal character, it must almost mean a vote of want of confidence in Government officials. The smallness of the community reduces it almost to a question amongst individuals. and as the Government members have been placed, unnecessarily and inexpediently, as I think, to some extent upon their defence, I must speak plainly on some points, but in doing so I must deprecate any idea of giving offence. I say. then, that responsible government is not desirable, and is not applicable to this colony at present, is practicably unworkable. And here I would deprecate the impression which is being so studiously instilled i n to the people of this colony concerning what has been said of the unfitness of the colony for responsible government. His Excellency the Governor has never said, nor has any member of the Government ever said that the people are unfit, individually, to govern themselves. I say that, man for man, this community will compare favorably with any people on this coast. ( Hear, hear, from the Attorney General.) Nor is it even the smallness of the population that I consider to be the great objection . although 1 admit that this is a drawback; but it is the scattered character of that population. It w ould be practically impossible to organise electoral districts so that they should properly represent the interests of the separate parts, and of the whole colony, as Victoria is the centre of wealth, and intelligence also, if yon will, under present circumstances the government would be centralized in the hands of Victorians, who would thus rule the colony, and this would be objectionable (Hear, hear, from Mr Holbrook,) an d I say also that there would be a great difficulty in getting proper representatives to represent the respective districts. 1 do not agree with the hon member who has stated that only the chaff of the people is blown Into this House. for 1 say, sir, that this Council, constituted as it is, has proved that men fit to represent the people do come here. Responsible government will come as a matter of course when the community is fit for it, but that form of government is not fitted for communities in their infancy. It has nerer been so considered. Look abroad into the world and you wit! find large populations without responsible government There is no necessity to look far off to see whether the Anglo-Saxon race must necessarily have responsible government Look across the straits , where there is a population of, I suppose, 30,000 people, and there they h ave neither responsible government nor representative institutions. Look at Oregon , also with no representation until the population exceeded 45,000 Look at the Red River settlement, also with a population larger than ours they do not apply for responsible government. It doe s not follow according to the rule of Anglo-Saxon minds that this form of government m ust prevail. 1 do not think the sort of responsibility which is advcated would be suitable to this colony at present, or would promote its true interests. If 1 did think it desirable I should be found amongst its most cordial advocates, as this is a matter open for discussion without Government direction. But I think , sir, that our present form ol Government is practically a more real responsibility to the people than that proposed by the hon member f r New Westminster, this form w hicb the bon member for Lillooet finds it so easy to animadvert upon. F or w e are in reality if not directly responsible t0 the people. We, as servants of the crown, are directly and immediately responsible to the Governor, and the Governor i s responsible to the Queen, who is the guardian of the people's rights. This is no mere idea, for the fact of responsibility has been, over and over again, proved. If you have any good grounds of complaint you know where to lay them and get redress. This responsibility which we owe is more real, less fluctuating, less open to doubtful influences, and under it the righs of the whole country are secured and protected, and not those of the majority to the prejudice of the minority, as under the so called responsible government, which really means party government, advocated so warmly by the hon member for New Westminster, W hy, sir, the hon member has admitted to you that under that system the government of the day might come down to pass measures or unfair means. Hon Mr Robson—No, I made use of no each words ; what were my words? Hon M r Trutcb—The hon member said, and I took down his words, that under responsible government the government might come down to the House and carry measures by means not excessively fair. 1 say that this cannot occur under the present system, that no corruption can be charged against this g overnment. 1 think the House it capable of being remodelled. I would rather see a larger element of representative government in this council with such a majority that the government would have no opportunity of passing a measure objectionable to the people, as understood by their representatives; such a majority as I advocated js a resolution submitted to this Council. But the hon members for New Westminster, for Victoria District, and for Lillooet, tell you that the people desire responsible government, that they must have it and will have it. I say, sir, that if they do say so, which I very much doubt, it is because the population have been educated up to it by those who have agitated the subject through the Fress and through speeches; some no doubt press for it from cooviction and some with a view to serving their own ends, but I believe, sir, that what the people really want is very much an administration of the government as will tend to bring back prosperity to the colony. You \are told that the present officials have no sympathy with the people, that they are not of the people, that they move in a different sphere, and constitute a class by themselves, Is this true- or is it not rather the fact that persons who have ends to serve have put us in a class by ourselves? The hon member says that the hand of the benefactors of the people must be callous with labor. When, I ask, are those throughout the world who have labored most for the people by speech and pen? I say that the real statesmen who have come most to advance the truest interests of the people, have not sprung from the ranks of those whom the hon member classes as the people. The hon member for New Westminster says that the present government officials are well estimable and honest but that they cannot enjoy the confidence of the people because they are not true officials, they are not elected by them. And, he as able as we might, and as honest and work 6A THE GOVERNMENT GAZETTE EXTRAORDINARY. as we might, and do what we might for the people’s good, we could not gain their confidence because we are not directly resonsible to them. And the hon member sympathized with us for the position! N o w , sir, is it be true, as he says, that the government have not the confidence of the community when, he says, they deserve it. whose is the fault? I say, sir, it is the fault of those who, by voice and pen, have for years sedulously prejudiced the public mind of this community against that government, not by pointing out faults to be remedied, but by genera1 and indiscriminate fault finding, descending to personal abuse, and even to the verge of sc u rility. We have striven to do our duty- Hon members do not advance arguments but content themselves with saying that we are unpopular. I tell you why : if false impressions have gone abroad on this point let the responsibility of those impressions rest where it ought, for I say that it has been the business of certain persons to prejudice the public mind against government officials; let them settle the question of motives with their own consciences and with the people. If the officials in this House occupied the positions which would be held by officials under party government, I could understand the persistent course of opposition offered by some members present; but when I see the changed position, that there is no responsible government, and that our mouths are closed and our pen cannot be used in self-defence, I feel that we have been struck in a cowardly manner, and let the public defend the motives of those who have attacked us. I invite all in this Houses or out of it to aid us to carry out the government, and to act in a reasonable way in promoting the general interests of the colony. Whether we are to have responsible government or not I don’t know. I feel that it will come in good time, when the circumstances of the colony are so changed as to admit of its adaption— I think sooner with Confederation than without it—but whether we have it or not, I ask hon members to assist us instead of endeavoring to complicate matters and retard the progress of the colony. 1 ask them to give us some credit for good intentions. Now, sir, one remark in conclusion: the hon member for N ew Westminster, in his powerful oration, has not only allured us with the prospects of popularity under responsible government, but he has, I will not say threatened, but warned us of the result of our opposing him in this matter. He tells us that unless responsible government be conceded the cause of Confederation will be ruined, that the people would not have C onfederation without responsible government, this in fact is embodied in the preamble of his resolution. Sir, I have cordially supported Confederation because I honestly believe that it w ill be for the b enefit of the local interests of this community as well as for the security and consolidation of Imperial interests ; but I believe that this community is not ready for responsjble government; I will not. therefore. do what I consider w rong that good may come ; I will not vote for responsible government far the sake of gaining Confederation. I, for one, say, if the people won't have Confederation without responsible government, if they regard responsible government as the main object of Confederation, it they do not appreciate the real a dvantages of Confederation, let Confederation wait a while. The Governor has sent down resolutions which he thinks can be carried out, and we hold that. whether under confederation or not, this matter of responsible government will ultimately have to be settled by the vote of the people. When the proper time comes we shall, I say, as a matter of course, have responsible government, and that time will arrive sooner under Confederation than without it. I trust the Dominion Government; I do not think they will go against the will of the people. I believe that in this, as in other matters, if they exercise influence at all, it w ill be for the good of the country. A government of liberal institutions cannot be expected to oppose the wishes of the people in proper and reasonable matters. Responsible government ought not to be a condition of Confederation, and I say that in these resolutions it is very properly left to be settled in a new and more fully representative Council, which the Governor has told us he is going to obtain Imperial sanction to establish. But if Confederation is to depend on this question of responsible government then I say let it be the test also of the reality of the supporters of Confederation Hon Mr R o b s o n—I expect the privilege of a general reply, but I desire to explain, now that the Hon. Chief Commissioner has made an unfair use of what I said about "horny hands and patched garments.” I disclaim h aving used it in that connection attributed to me, his remarks are unfair Hon Mr Walkem—I think on an important question of this kind every member should give a reason for his vote. I have given the matter great consideration, and had intended entering somewhat fully into the discussion, but the Hon. Chief Commissioner h as anticipated me. I have been utterly astonished as I listened to what fell from him. I entirely coincide with him in his argument and in his views. Indeed, I can hardly h elp but thinking that either he has copied my notes or his I must congratulate myself on coming to this conclusion. On the same grounds I congratulate the H ouse on the good temper, good taste intelligence and ability with which this question has been launched for discussion. The main speech for the honorable member for Victoria District did not deign to express his views, has been that of the honorable member for New Westminster. As I listened to that speech, sir, one of the best ever uttered in this House, I almost felt that for five long years I had been wrong, he almost made a convert of m e, but upon looking a little more closely into it I find that it is based u p on false premises ; his arguments are fallacious, and his conclusions wrong. Tbe honorable member says that responsible Government is a principle which may be applied either to the Great Eastern or to a dairy churn, or to a lady’s watch; that it is a principle capable of being carried out by three, or three hundred. This is utterly incorrect; it is not a principle but a form, one element of w hich is responsib ility to the people It is a form adopted by the people. But it does not follow as a matter of induction that it can be used or carried out in every place or by every community. In 1837 the rebellion in Canada for the purpose of acquiring responsible Government took place. The rebellion was raised and the question agitated simply for changing the form of Government. W hat was the population? It was in the neighborhood of 2,000,000 in 1837, and of 2 500,000 in 1861. Look at the difference of the population of this colony , after deducting the aliens and females, there is scarcely a voting population through the whole colony of 3,000. Have the whole county mapped out and show me how much further the Goveruor can go in usefully extending the representation. We have nine members, and out of these nine, under responsible Government, we should have to elect a Colonial Secretary, an Attorney General, a Chief Commissioner of L ands and Works, and probably two other Cabinet Ministers, altogether five in office and four struggling for power. M ake the whole number eighteen and you then have a constant struggle for power, a struggle such as we have not had in this colony before, and such as I hope we shall not see. There are virtually two ends of the colony w hich represent all the wealth and property of the community, Victoria and Cariboo. Cariboo would be contending for the repeal of road tolls, and Victoria would be contending that they ought to be paid. It may be said that these general questions of taxation will be left to the Dominion Government, but there are many other subjects which will create differences between the two ends of the colony. The honorable member for New Westminster says if we gain without responsible Government we shall go in with agitation. Does any one believe that if we had responsible Government to-morrow, politicians will have no subject on which to agitate Political agitation will never cease. Let us go further. As the honorable Chief Commissioner says we have the United States advocating responsible Government, and that form of it which is said to be the best in theory, a form in reality democratic, but the people are not educated to he extent of the principle itself. Americans are averse not only to granting small but large territories, the freedom which we now ask. They say, " You shall be a Territory until you are properly educated.” For instance, there is Washington Territory, with a population of 27,000, sends a Delegate to Congress, who has no vote. Tacota, another Territory has been refused admission as a state until it has a population larger than it now possesses I am just reminded about Alaska, which is not even a territory yet. General Thomas reported against giving it any other than a military form of Government. How can we then expect responsible Government with our population. I know that there are honorable members wavering ; their interests tells them to vote one way, their Conscience points to another I say, vote according to your conscience. 1 say that a village can never have responsible Government. I maintain that it would prove a curse through the agitation that would follow instead of a blessing. I coincide with the honorable member for New Westminster as to what he says as to callous hands. I believe there are men with tattered garments in the upper country quite capable of giving a sensible vote upon all questions likely to come before a Council in this colony, but we find that they have too much to do, they have no time for politics, they have to earn their own b read. I believe that the honorable member for Cariboo has uttered the true sentiments of the great majority of the district. I do not believe that Cariboo is favorable to responsible Government. Those gentlemen with the patched garments and callous hands have the same opportunity that the member for New Westminster has had of coming into the House. He has told us with pride of his hard work as a pioneer on the F raser river, and to-day we hear him advocating with most eloquent language, his views upon this great question. His voice has had much to do with shaping the councils of this House, and 1 ask, are these doors shut to any man in the colony of equal talent with the honorable gentleman who can be found willing to devote their time to the service of their country? I do not feel in the servile position of being obliged to vote one way or the other. I am as free to vote as the honorable member himself. I shall give my vote to the best of my ability. I believe that no compulsion has been brought to bear upon any member of this House, official or otherwise. The latter part of the speech of the honorable gentleman (Mr Robson) is hardly worthy of the former, it contains language which I am very sorry he has used, language which makes me believe that it is not from conviction, but that it is intended to go for h to the world to s ign up the people ; excellent stump oratory, if without intending the slightest disrespect I may use the term. I believe it is not the wish of the property owners of Victoria to have responsible Government. Do you suppose, sir, that property owners are going, willingly, to intrust their interests to persons of whom they know nothing? I do not dread professional politicians, 1 believe they are as useful as any other professional men in their way, but I say, as a fact, there are no politicians here with the exception of those who have devoted their time to politics. Why, 1 ask, is there so great an antipathy to leaving this question for the people to decide at the polls? “ Give us,” says the other side, " an opportunity of educating ourselves, so that our mistakes, when made, may be remedied ” 1 say that there is no better education than this Council in which honorable members have education before they come to responsible Government, for under the scheme foreshadowed by the Governor, the position will be very little inferior to responsible Government. Depend upon it, if the Canadian Government think we can manage responsible Government they will give it to us, they will be glad to get rid of the question. I say, however, this question is being agitated at an imoportune time. I, for one would not consent to trust my interests to any such change. I do not believe in the present form of Government, but if the form foreshadowed by the Governor be carried out, it will give the people a system very little inferior, as I have said, to responsible Government, and infinitely more workable. I trust that honorable members will give due weight to the remarks of other speakers who have preceded me upon this question, and will well consider their votes. Hon Mr Drake— Mr. Chairman, I have a strong object on to this clause being inserted; it never ought to have been in the terms. It presumes that this Colony is willing to go into Confederation with the form of Government that we have at present; it seems to have been put in as a sop to Canada; it ought to have been left out, I cannot see why it was inserted, or what advantage it can possibly be to us. If we go into Confederation bound hand and foot with the same form of government as now, we shall have no power to change the form. We shall then have Canada as a Queen Regnant; we shall then have an Executive who will if so directed, vote against responsible government. This colony would be a preserve for Canadian statesmen and Canadian patronage ; we shall be no more advanced then than now. Without going into argument I may be pardoned, I trust, if I quote three propositions of John Stuart Mill on responsible government First, " Do the people require it; or are they unwillinh to accept it?" W e are told that this has not been made a question; 1 deny this statement. It has been made, a question, more or less, in Victoria at every election; every election depends more or less on this point. Second, " Are the people willing to take the burdens which are imposed on them by such a form? " I say that we have the answer to this proposition in the fact of there being people willing to come here where they are practically useless. Do not persons come forward to represent the people? A very large majority of the people take part in every election. Third, " Are the people willing and able to do that which will enable the government to perform its functions properly? " This I contend is the condition of the colony. T h e main argument of the Chief Commissioner in his very able speech, a broad argument and very well put is that the population is scattered I say this argument cannot be used w ith effect. We are told that the Government would fall into the hands of Victoria as the centre of population and wealth; no great harm if it did. Victoria is dependent upon ad parts of the colony and they on her ; the interests are identical. Another objection that has been raised is that we cannot get men of proper intelligence and qualification for THE GOVERNMENT GAZETTE EXTRAORDINARY, positions of honor and trust. Looking round this council board we see men who have come out to this colony to make their own fortunes and homes; out of them the present members of the Government have been chosen, and out of our present population there can be found an equal number of men who can properly fulfil the duties of the Government. I cannot see that it is impossible to find proper men. If we find men willing to sit in this Council now we shall find plenty ready and anxious to share in the burdens of responsible government. The sufficiency or insufficiency of population is not an element in this question. The United States has been pointed out to us as an example. I say. there is no responsible government in the United States, it is an absolute despotic democracy absolutely irresponsible to the people except once in four years. There is n o such thing as responsibility in the form of government of the United States, the only means of getting rid of a minister is by impeachment. The hon member for Cariboo, in his rambling speech, gives us no new argument against responsible government; he certainly reiterated much that was forcibly put forward by the hon Chief Commissioner. I c a n well believe that the wheat was left at Cariboo and the chaff came here. Hon Mr Humphreys— Sir, I have listened to the speeches of the hon Chief Commissioner of Lands and Works and to the hon Government Nominee, and I find them difficult to answer because there is so little in them,; the only w a yv would be to have them printed and read them, they carry their answers with them. One non member says that ir rests on numbers; I say that intelligence is the only qualification for resp onsible government, numbers have nothing to do with it. If I err l am proud in erring with some ot the greatest men that England ever produced. The hon Chief Commissioner has admitted that the population, taken man for man, is equal to that of any country Then I say we have the proper qualification; let us have practical and n ot theoretical means of governing. What is really the case? Under the present form of government the people have to pay for the privilege and benefit of a few gentlemen sitting round this board. Take away this form of government and make it more liberal, and what is the danger? All the civil wars and troubles have not arisen from the uneducated, but from the ambition of the so called educated classes. The people have been the Conservatives who came forward to keep the country going; take away the so-called intelligent and educated classes and it will be no great loss, the laboring classes can always supply men to fill their places; but take away the working classed and you kill the world, the educated classes cannot fill their places. I n my opinion, Sir. the people want practical reality. They have endured too long the law’s delay. and the insolence of those in office. Why should we come here, year after year, to ask for a change in the form of Government? I think that responsible government should be a s in e q u a n o n of Confederation. I shall move an amendment to that effect. H on Dr Helmcken—Gre a t heavens! what terrible things are said and done in the name of the people. T o hear hon members talk one would think that they were the people, but the people are quiet while hon members are very loud. I intend to support the Government; I do not mean to say much for or against I take the position that the people can have responsible government when they want it, and their representatives ought to be satisfied to take it when the people really and seriously ask for it. Responsible government has been one of the watchwords of a certain set of politicians who wanted to bring on Confederation, government of from for and by the people, without regard to the material interests of the Colony—this means government by politicians. These gentlemen will sacrifice every benefit to the Colony for responsible government. Confederation to me means terms; to them it means pickings, office, place and power. This will be represented I am well aware, as being the result of being in the Executive Council; it is said that there is a great difference between the atmosphere of the two Councils, I acknowledge it. T here with closed doors people speak the truth without any ad captandum arguments addressed to the galleries; there people can state what their opinions really are ; here popularity has to be sought. W e are told that the people will fight for responsible Government That is mere nothing— words only. The honorable member for New Westminster in his able speec h erected a very handsome structure, but like most fancy structures, it will be a very expensive one. He wants a Government like Ontario, that is a Government of one House, with eighty members. For a Government of that kind not less than forty or fifty would be absolutely necessary. H on Mr Robson—-I never said like that of Ontario, but that we wanted the principle of responsible Government as existing in Ontario. H on Dr. Helmcken — Then why not bring in a scheme embodying it? The true principles of responsible Government can only exist satisfactorily with forty or fifty members in the House. It would cost very little short, of $20,000 per annum. That out of the very small amount, we are to get from Canada would reduce the amount likely to be available for public works to a fraction. You must have a large number, to work responsible Government, or more properly speaking, party Government. If we are to have it, I would not have the heads of Departments responsible to the people, at least not the working heads; if any head of a Department is to be responsible to the people, let it be the political head; but I would make the working heads of Departments permanent. I have found from my experience of the 0ld Vancouver Island House of Assembly, that policy frequently changes and turns round. The same thing would happen under responsible Government. If I wished tp oppose Confederation I believe that I could not do a better thing towards effecting my object than to vote for responsible Government, but I want to see the more material warns advanced by Confederation. I know that material interests were not the pivot, but that it was place, patronage and office, that was wanted. With regard to the present system of Government, it is very easy to say that it is bad, but I have listened to all the speeches and have not heard one word pf practical faultfinding with the present government—merely the assumption that the people desire change. This desire for change they have been educated to. I acknowledge many faults in the past, but we have now a new Executive, and we are promised a change in the form of government; but this is apart from Confederation altogether, it appears to me that the first thing we have to arrange is the money question, to get our material interests first settled, to make sure that this colony should be pecuniarily better off, to make the question of Confederation now turn upon material interest and not allow our material interests to be jeopardized by a cry for responsible government, not to allow responsible government to be the sauce to m ake the public swallow bad and unprofitable terms. All members have acknowledged tha t money is the basis of all governments; let us get that money I would not have the public vote for responsible government and f orget or put in the back ground, the money. Place the question upon material terms and the colony will demand profitable terms ; but mix it up with responsible government and you get a divided opinion upon it, and those who think responsible government every thing will vote for that to the exclusion of a ny terms, or, at all events, with unprofitable terms. There are doubtless, many who hope to live upon responsible government, but, sir, responsible government is not food and raiment. The people can live without responsible government but they cannot live upon it. Give them food and raiment first, the rest will follow in natural succession. These few words will give you my reasons for consenting to the arrangement proposed in the conditions. More than this, I am not pledged to responsible government, but I am pledged to representative institutions. The latter have been granted. My mission thus far is fulfilled. I have always asserted that we must take our steps to responsible government gradually. Having representative institutions, we can go on to the ether. No one ever stated that the people were unfit to govern themselves, all acknowledge that they have talent enough, but this I do assert, that thus far the people have shown an unwillingness to govern themselves — have taken but little interest in the matter. It is not that they are unfit, but unwilling; they prefer looking after their own business, it pays them better. I need not refer to the difficulty of getiing members, and doubtless some of us sit here from that cause, and it is no doubt true a s has been said that better could have been f ound outside. If you have responsible government it will fall into the hands of those who wish to make a living by it. No one has said that it would be economical— it would not be so. It would require at least thirty members to carry on party government, for six weeks at least every year, or $150 per diem for 36 days, which would amount to $5490 and then the mileage would come to as much more, say,altogether $10 000. Add to these the salaries of the political heads, say five at $2000 per annum, and then you have the nice little sum of $20,000 a year. Then, I suppose, each Min»ster would require a pension when he w ent out. The real executive officers would remain then as now, and would have to be paid nearly as much as at present. The truth is there would be a great difficulty in getting members, and without a large body of members it could not be carried on. You would find that the best men would avoid politics, and soon there would be very great corruption. There is a great deal of talk about voting away the people’s money, but it must be borne in mind that a part of that money, under Confederation will come from Canada, and she will have a right to see it properly expended. There is also a great deal of talk about hon official members voting their own salaries, but would not the same thing be done under responsible government? Have not hon representative members voted themselves salaries this present session? H on members say that if responsible government is not granted we will agitate I thought that every body was so much in favor of it that the people would rise, if it w ere not included in the terms, that there would be employment for every gunsmith in Victoria; and yet we are told we will agitate? Hon Mr R obson—I never said that; I said that the people would agitate Hon Dr Helmcken—It is much the same thing, the agitators will ‘beat the bush' once more, and they will perhaps be driving the birds for other people once again, if the people really desire responsible government. W hy is there any necessity for all this agitation? 1 admit that many of the people of Victoria desire it, and think that it can be carried out- Ask the scattered districts in the country and they will tell you that they do not know or c are about it, political opinion does not run high in the colony. I intend to support the government upon this clause, but I leave myself perfectly free to vote for responsible government if I think proper, I want to secure the material interests of the colony. Let the people say whether those material interests will be benefitted by Confederation, but not mix up the question of responsible government wit it. I a m perfectly willing to abide by the d ecision o f the people on responsible government, and on Confederation on Terms, separately. My sole desire is to see this country materially benefitted if the people want responsibility 1 will not say nay, but we must have good terms. At the polls responsible government might carry Confederation with very indifferent terms I am perfectly certain that the Government have acted wisely in not allowing the terms to be clogged with responsible government. I say don’t let responsible government take the place of material benefits. Hon Dr Carrall— Sir— I rise to take exception to what the hon and learned member for Victoria City said about being bound hand and foot to Canada In my remarks he can find no efforts catch votes, and no clap trap addressed to the galleries, but I advocate what may be unpopular from conviction. H on Mr Ba r n a r d—Sir—I agree with the bon Chief Commissioner that it is a pity that this question has been brought up not for I had m ade up my mind to vote for responsible government its entirety, but the hon member for New Westminster put to. the question to tbe hon Attorney-General, who said it must go on. Hon Attorney General—I said that as the non member for N ew Westminster and others insisted upon opening the discussion m u s t g o o n . Hon Mr Robson—I felt regret that it should be brought up now but when I asked if we could put it off, the hon Attorney General said it was too late. Hon attorney General -I offered the hon members for N ew Westminster and Lillooet every opportunity for discussing this important question upon a day to be set apart for the purpose. Hon Mr H umphreys—W hat 1 did was in consequence of what the hon Attorney General said at the commencement of the debate he invited recommendations, otherwise I should not have put my notice on the board Hon Mr Barnard—It was fully impressed on: my mind that the question should not be mixed up with the terms. I am astonished at the charge against representative members of trying to force this question upon the House at an inopportune time. I will leave it to the government to say whether it shall be left for another day or go on. Hon A t t o r n e y G e n e r a l—I say, again, now the debate has begun,; now the gauntlet is down, the debate must go on. Hon Mr Robson -Sir, this course is most unfair on the part of the government members. Let the House decide whether it will go on with this question now or postpone it. It seems to me that the hon Attorney General is resorting to a parliamentary manoeuver in forcing this matter on. It is a matter that representative members only ought to vote on. We s hall have a large majority representative members on this question and that is all we want. I say that the Attorney General did not fairly answer my question as to whether, by passing this resolution, we should shut the door to further discussion of the question during the present session Hon Ch ie f C om m is s io n e r- l should now object to the resolution being withdrawn, as the question has been discussed let us take a decision on upon it, it would be unwise to postpone the question. 7A THE GOVERNMENT GAZETTE EXTRAORDINARY. H on Mr H u m p h r e y s—I think, sir, the matter cannot now be postponed, let us fight it out and have done with it. Hon Mr R o b s o n—I say, Sir, that this debate may be postponed, and if the government vote is given against the postponement we shall koow the reason. Hon Mr Barnard—The hon Chief Commissioner said that he should take no adverse vote on this resolution as a vote of want of confidence. I don’t want that. Won’t hon government members help us ? Hon Dr Carrall—The opposition say that the government ought not to have put such a resolution on the terms, let us take that issue. Hon Mr Barnard—It was not my desire to hamper the government ; I desired 10 give a hearty support to the government, and, at the same time, to do my duty to my constituents. I have never felt the weight of responsibility as I feel it to d ay: I feel that I am about casting a vote which will affect for weal or woe the destiny of this fine Province. I am convinced that if a majority of the elected members of this Council vote ‘aye7 to day on this question, responsible government will be inaugurated conjointly with Confederation. It is beyond a question that the intelligent portion of the community are in favor of responsible government, but there is a grave question in regard to its adaptation to the colony. The words coming from His Excellency are worthy of careful consideration. They contain strong reasons against the introduction of responsible government. Public opinion is not settled on the Island. The hon senior member for Victoria city has shown in his remarks that there is a great want of settled principle in the colony The principal men of Victoria are averse to taking upon themselves the duties and labor of legislating for the country. Men on standing and wealth stand aloof. The merchants, manufacturers and professional men take no interest in the matter of legislation. There is a great difficulty in getting good representative men. There are, I admit, many good reasons which might be urged against the measure, and I have no doubt that dissatisfaction, to some extent m ay ensue. I agree with the Commissioner of Lands and Works, in his remarks about the press influencing the public unfavorably to the government, but the blame is not in the press but in that system of government which keeps the rulers silent, the members of the government ought to be in a position to defend themselves both by pen and speech I have glanced at a few reasons against the admission of responsible government, but I will now look at the other side. Look at the fact of all the larger subjects, under union, being dealt with by the Federal power. This fact of itself is as strong an argument as we need. What hon member can go to his constituents and tell them that he thinks the local business of this colony could be managed better at Ottawa than it can be by ourselves? The official members or this government will no doubt avail themselves of the retiring pension, and appointees from Ottawa will take their places. Will these latter officials have to be pensioned off by this colony when we adopt responsible government? This is a strong objection to entering the union under a system like the present. This colony m ay be asked to pension another set of officials. Will the people be satisfied with this sort of government if we are to have appointees from Ottawa? There are a class of men w ho oppose Confederation on this ground. They would prefer remaining as they are with the officials nominated from Downing-street, rather than from Ottawa. It is often asserted that this colony is not ready. How long are we to wait? Canada was told the same story when she had a population of 600,000 All the other Provinces were told the same thing. Must we wait for such an increase, or must we fight as did Canada? Throw us on our own resources as a colony and we will soon learn valuable lessons in the science of government. There were gentlemen of good families and of good education, who came here in early dsys, who had never suffered privations of any sort before they came here ; sent out to make fortunes, or, at ail events, homes for themselves ; their roughing it was rough indeed bad news had come from the mines, the avenues of trade were closed there were no agricultural pursuits for them to turn to, the consequence was that they had to lie round hotels; after failing to get government employment, for which, as a matter of course, they applied, some kept bars whilst waiting for remittances. the reason was that they never had been taught self-reliance ; we shall be in the same position if we are constantly to have rulers from England, or Canada, but throw us on our own resources and we shall succeed. Self-reliance is the best means of education in politics as in anything else. If our rulers are sent us from England or Ottawa w e will always lack self-reliance. Self-reliance is written on every line of the British North American Act. Rely upon yourselves, is the cry of the people of England. It is better to grapple with the difficulties now when the issues are small and comparatively unimportant, and should we make blunders they will not be so serious w hen our interests are small; and for what errors we do commit, the consequences will fall upon ourselves. W e will, no doubt, blunder at first and there may be chaff blown here. If responsible government will bring the scum to the top, dross will go to the bottom. The scum will be ladled off —the chaff will be blown away by the breath of public opinion. The Governor’s promise of a majority will not satisfy the people, and we should therefore, urge upon His Excellency to give us responsible government. I am not in favor, however, of making that condition a sin e q u a n o n of Confederation. I w ould accept Confederation with good terms, even without responsible government There may be a few arguments against it, but there are many in its favor. Under no circumstances would I like Confederation and responsible government to go to the polls together. I hope the people will sever the two. Let us have Confederation and we shall get responsible government. Hon Mr Wood—In rising to address myself to the motion now before this Committee, I do so w ith a double object: I feel myself challenged to uphold my opinion on the subject of responsible government as applied to this colony, and I am desirous to add a few words on the bearing of the subject in ihe matter of Confederation now before the Council. 1st. With respect to the subject of responsible government, a s to this, sir, my views have been for a long time settled, and I shall endeavor to express them as clearly as I can; the resuit of them is expressed in a few words I am in favor of the extension of representative institutions little by little, to the utmost verge of safety. But I am opposed in this community at least, to the establishment of what is called responsible government. These are my views shortly. 1 believe them to be the settled convictions of most moderate and experienced men not bound to flatter popular constituencies. And 1 believe I am doing a service to society in upholding such moderate views against the popular error and the popular bias in favor of the rash application of responsible government in such communities. 1 will start, sir, at once from an historical point of view, the hon member for New Westminster has, as I understand him, asserted that responsible government is the immemorial birthright of Englishman, and that the principle of Cabinet ministers going in and out with votes of a m ajority of the House of Commons is a principle of ancient date. My understanding of the history of my country leads to a different conclusion and however much, it may be clear and obvious that representative institutions are our natur e and inalienable birthright—however much it may be established that the power of self taxation resides and has always resided in the representatives of the country, in the Commons of England, carrying with it the overwhelming power of the parse— it is, I believe clearly admitted that the principle of responsible government, as now understood, has existed for little more than 100 years, say from the accession of George I and the termination of Lord Bute’s administration, so that I admit the hon gentleman’s proposition only so far as this. Representative institutions are the birthright of the British nations representative institutions and the privilege of taxing ourselves. Now, sir. I believe the whole scope of representative institutions to be greatly misrepresented. It is the fashion for honorable members to say, that the Government of this or any other community are bound to govern according to the well understood wishes of the people; that the vox populi is the vox dei ; that ministries and Governments are responsible to the people But the true principle, as we all very well knew, is that Governments and ministries are responsible, not to the people as a populace, but to the representatives of the people, properly and reasonably chosen. Governments and ministries are responsible not to numerical majorities, but to the country. Now, sir, representative institutions are liable to this obvious and well known danger. I will quote the words of a well known political writer, Herbert Spencer. " Whenever the profit accruing to the Representative individually, from the passage of a mischievous measure largely exceeds his loss as a unit in the community from the operation of the injurious law, his interest becomes antagonistic to that of his constituents, and sooner or later will sway his vote.” How true and how obvious this is. I might go further when the private and personal, the direct and immediate interest or the representative or of the constituents, whose advocates and delegates they are, is opposed to any matter of legislative action. The direct and material interest will of a certainty prevail over the distant and more remote welfare of the community, in all but very rare instances. This is the danger that threatens all representative institutions, and the only safeguard against it is the qualification— the pecuniary and material qualification of the representive, the pecuniary and material qualifications of the elector, and accordingly we see representative institutions flourishing and successful only when this safeguard practically exists. Let us turn to the example of England. In England representative institutions and responsible Government work smoothly. And why? Because of the notoriously aristocratic and plutocratic character of the Legislature of Great Britain Political life is a sealed book to any but the wealthy classes. Every member o f Parliament is a m an of property, no other can afford the luxury of legislative life, and society is secure in the hands of representatives whose property would suffer from the results of vicious or reckless legislation. I say nothing of the question of peace and war. probably the most momentous and disastrous subject of vicious and reckless legislation, a question which will not arise in the colony T he cream of all legistion is taxation, and my solid conviction is that representative institutions and responsible Government will fail whenever the working majority is in the hands of an unsubstantial class of Representatives or of electors. I have thus, sir, treated of representative institutions and responsible Government somewhat in the abstract. I will now refer more particularly to its application to this colony, and this apart from any question of Confederation, and I will repeat that I am in favor of the extension to the utmost possible limits of the representative elements of this Council, but adverse to responsible Government. With respect to the constitution of the Legislative Council of British Columbia it might, I th:nk, hardly be necessary in the present condition of the colony, to advocate a second chamber—a Council as distinct from an assembly. However advisable this may be in an advanced condition of the colony, advanced in numbers and wealth, few, if any would advocate such an institution as a second Chamber. The elements for forming such a chamber are sadly wanting in the present state of affairs, and the matter may be dismissed without farther comment —without discussing the advisability in a general way of such an institution at all, or the constitutional elements of such a body. But with regard to the Legislature on the supposition of its consisting of one single House, it will be necessary to speak at somewhat greater length of what elements ought such a legislative body to consist? At present it consists of official members, heads of departments official members not heads of departments but representing for the most part different Magisterial districts, a few nominated members— nominated, I think it is reasonable to presume, from an impression of their being tolerably intelligent and moderate— and a few representative members. It is asked whether the constitution of this Council should be altered so as to establish direct responsible government, or what may be looked upon almost as its equivalent, a large working majority of responsible m embers. I leave out of the question at present, all reference to any modification of the constitution ot the Council in the event of Confederation, and I consider the matter at present, only in reference to the Council and the Colony in their actual condition. At present it is obvious, and must be left by all of us, by official members no less than by independent members, that our position as a Crown Colony, is what is commonly called a f a l s e p os it ion . We are individually as well fitted for seif-government as our brothers or our cousins in the Old Country or in Canada. I will go further: 1 will say that the community, taken individually in this Colony is better qualified to demand and have representative institutions. I say taken individually - and I mean it in its strict sense. Man for man, I believe the Colonist a better politicia n than his English cousin. The aristocratic class hardly exists it is true. It is an injustice to presume for a moment that the Colonist in this, or any other colony of Anglo Saxon origin is in any way unfit for the enjoyment of the fre est political liberty Higher class we have none, but the middle and lower classes are, I do not hesitate to say it, superior to the middle and lower classes at home. The colonist is more enterprising, and more pushing than the stay at home Englishman. He has better knowledge of the world and of human nature, he graduates in a school in which politics are prominent, and he is free from an immense amount of ignorance and prejudice which is thought and written and acted in the old world. But then comes the consideration, what elements are indispensable in the community to form the representative body, if as is contended, that element is to be supreme, or what is the same thing in point of actual power, when that element constitutes the working majority? I will answer, 1. Local:zed and perma8A |
Title | Government gazette, British Columbia. Volume 09, supplement (1870). Part 4. |
Additional title | Government gazette extraordinary. General order. |
Description | Item is a book. Volume 9, supplement (May 1870). Pages 1A-8A. Issued separately, bound between no. 22 and no. 23. |
Genre | Official gazettes |
Subject | Gazette--British Columbia: British Columbia--Politics and government--Periodicals. |
Publication Date | 1870 |
Printer | Government Printing Office, Victoria, British Columbia |
Library has | v. <2, 10> |
Bibliography of British Columbia Number | 187 |
Identifier | J2 B7 |
Coverage - Chronological | May 1870 |
Coverage - Geographic | British Columbia |
Language | eng |
Type of material | text |
Original From | British Columbia. Legislative Library |
Access and Use Rights | Public domain. Crown copyright has expired. |
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